Roll or plant after high-siding?

[JackMan]

Hi again. Another (relatively) new rider question: I know this isn't something you plan for, but is there any particular way you should try to land after highsiding? Should you try to make yourself roll, or just go fetal?

Example: I was hit by a left turner last September a month after getting my license and went flying over the SUV's hood. I had maybe a half-second on the brakes so I'd guess I was going about 35 at the time. When I landed, I planted on the pavement with all my weight on my shoulder, which was smashed up pretty good and required a metal plate to be inserted in my arm, but suffered no other damage except a little road rash when I slid backwards and my jacket was pulled up. Since then I've often thought that, had I the presence of mind to roll when I impacted the ground, I might have lessened the impact on my shoulder and come away completely unscathed. On the other hand, I'm worried that I could have done damage to my spine or neck that way, or whapped my head against the pavement a few times before coming to a stop. The jacket I was wearing then didn't have a back pad, but the ones I wear now do, not sure if that would make a difference. I also have a theory that my leather jacket may have "grabbed" the pavement, whereas a textile jacket would have slid more and lessened the force of the impact. That's obviously not a great feature if you slide into other cars/trees/guardrails though.

I guess there are alot of variables here that could affect the answer, but under ideal circumstances is going into a roll after a highside a good or bad idea?

[a13x]

I've been 'real good at crashing' most of my life. I raced downhill for years and years which is basically going 30-45 mph thru trees down a mountain. I'm a big fan of the 'tuck and roll' method. Personally I've never broken or sprained anything in my life.. even thou I've done XTREME SPORTS!!! since I was young.

Take it for what it's worth.

[Awesome]

In all of my crashes I have not been able to control where I'm going or what my body is doing, I either slide or tumble till I come to a stop.

[a13x]

Ya I think it's instincts. Glad my instincts aren't to superman onto my melon

[benVFR]

I do think you can train your instincts.. just not by riding.

I've fallen enough times and rolled succesfully that I think martial arts stuff works. I took Aikido for about a year and a half. It was about 75% learning to take a fall. You might go for a 2 hour class and you get thrown 100+ times in the drills.

I totally think if I had hit the ground with my arm straight yesterday in my bicycle crash I'd have a broken arm and/or collarbone. It's happened too many times for me to think it's coincidence. Yesterday people were stunned that I got right up.

Now whether or not rolling is smart in a 75mph highside who knows, you're just fooked either way I guess! But I think it works at low speeds.

[Paul_E_D]

You definitely want to tuck and roll in a flip like motion in a highside. Keep your hands and arm close to your body. Then you want to just slide if possible. There are definitely instincts here and skiing, dirt riding, mt biking, trampolining etc. help.

But Alex and Hessogood are kidding themselve if they think they will race for too long without breaking or spraining something.

The fisrt time someone takes you out, or you highside, or your bike hits you, or... you will realize that skill/instinct only goes so far. Mechanism of injury will overcome instincts very quickly in our sport.

[Awesome]

I never claimed to be unbreakable, I have crashed a number of times on and off the track and have had a number of trips to the hospital. I don't see where I claimed I could avoid injury, quite the opposite, I was pointing out that at 100 MPH if the ground sends you tumbling you will tumble, and if you're sliding you will slide, unless of course you try to plant something and send yourself tumbling from a slide.

[Paul_E_D]

Oh, I mis-read your post to say "I COULD control where I was going..." Sorry about that. I think it's somewhere in the middle. You have "some" control if you are a "good" faller, but the speeds and forces involved can certainly make you just "along for the ride" in some situations.

[bump909]

ask this guy..



..then again, maybe not.

[LM954RR]

Wait till somebodies front wheel ends up in your back wheel while you're passing tight into T1 at speed and tell me what you think when you wake up...."did I tuck n roll...or did I ragdoll thill my head scrubbed off enough speed to slide to a stop."

Instincts are very helpfull to a point, after that point you're at the mercy of your environment.


Don't ask

[Awesome]

So far I've had bikes and riders bounce off the back of me twice coming into turn 1, then I just wait for the red coming out of two and there it is. After those scares I decided I'll just get in front and go faster than everyone and it's working out better.

[LM954RR]

Originally posted by hessogood
So far I've had bikes and riders bounce off the back of me twice coming into turn 1, then I just wait for the red coming out of two and there it is. After those scares I decided I'll just get in front and go faster than everyone and it's working out better.

That'll change when you get fast.......Lapping the tail end is even worse than the front pack cluster fuck.

[Awesome]

What do you mean by lapping the tail end? Coming off the grid or do you mean catching slow riders after a few laps in the race?

[LM954RR]

Yeah.......Not that the start is any safer, just not quite as fast at that point.

[Awesome]

I've hit that point too and it's scared the hell out of me in some cases, and gotten me EXTREMELY pissed in others, so far I've avoided any crashes due to lappers though I've lost possitions. Some people out there should not be racing.

[a13x]

Originally posted by Paul_E_D
But Alex and Hessogood are kidding themselve if they think they will race for too long without breaking or spraining something.

Ya dude.. what's up? Jesus I didn't say anything about being unbreakable. I said THE SAME THING YOU DID. Tuck and roll is (in my experience) a good thing.

I know Jay and I are 'newbie newbs' up at Loudon but come on now. I've been competing in action sports since I was in highschool, at the National level in multiple sports (at the Expert / Semipro level). Have appeared in videos (again for multiple sports) and magazines in the past. I'm no stranger to putting yourself in danger and I'm not living in a fantasy world about injury. I merely said I'm a good crasher (hey I've crashed at them all) and that FOR ME the tuck and roll has served me well in the past.

I think that as BenVFR said.. you can train your instincts. I didn't train shit, I just have been doing 'crazy things' all my life and I guess over time I've just 'learned' to tuck and roll on a instinctual level. Does that mean next time I fall I will do that? No, wasn't saying that. The original question was "If I could choose to do this or that.. what do you think is better"

Ya catching the 'tail end of the pack' within 3 laps sure isn't fun either.

[Nazo]

Originally posted by hessogood
I've hit that point too and it's scared the hell out of me in some cases, and gotten me EXTREMELY pissed in others, so far I've avoided any crashes due to lappers though I've lost possitions. Some people out there should not be racing.

(not to jack the thread.....but)
+1
I don't see why some races are grouped together the way they are.
By the 3rd or 4th lap in some races I'm lapping the 2nd race grid and it really sux being caught up in the slower riders of a slower class races. I think its just dangerous, and well somepeople have been taken out from this already this year.

...As for highsiding, unfortuneatly thats usually how I end up crashing and if its a high speed good jolting highside.......your just fooked! I think I naturally pull my limbs in whenever I realize I'm going down.....Its always that same feeling and I just tell myself....SHIT! Here we go again, I screwed up!

[benVFR]

Honestly it is interesting to hear you guys talking about the back markers.

Why don't they wave people off if they are that uncompetive and causing problems? Force them to pit in as they can't possibly win the race.

People will be mad cause they paid good money for the race. It doesn't work at a national level if you did it either. But at a local beginner race at Loudon it makes sense.

Hell I got pulled from a bike race this spring. (Just so happened to be at Loudon) I hadn't even been lapped. The officials were watching my lap times and as soon as they noticed I was not making up ground they pulled me due to dangerous conditions. They pulled pretty much everyone who wasn't competive to keep a lapped rider from causing an accident. I paid good money to drive up there and do the race but I didn't flip out, I was able to accept I wasn't competitive that day, things were dangerous, and finishing didn't mean that much.

Can't see why it wouldn't work in a motorcycle race especially if it has caused crashes. Yes there are bigger egos to worry about but crashes are crashes. They suck, and anyone who watches LRRS knows there are people who don't belong in the races.

[Paul_E_D]

Ya, Alex, easy man. I was agreeing with you. I just interpreted your statement to imply that if you're good, you can somehow avoid injury altogether.

I'm just tryin to say, don't expect that trend to last forever.

I thought that way when I started racing. I've won "extreme" ski competitions and such, but there's a reason all the pros in this sport have metal in their bodies... The mechanism for injury on a bike at these speeds is very punishing. It's not something that can be "outsmarted"

Like everything, there are exceptions. You could be the one guy who doesn't get hurt, but don't count on it. I think my teammate Chris survived 4 year without significant injury, so it is possible...

[TTD]

I absolutely think you can train yourself to fall properly ...

... if you know when you're going to fall.





I suppose if I was braking hard and then realized I was still going to hit whatever was in front of me... I could somewhat plan my flight.


All of my crashes happened so fast ... I was just along for the ride.

[OreoGaborio]

Werd... a wise man once said "A cat may always land on it's feet, but it doesn't make a fahk all bit of difference if it loses its brakes goin into turn 9 at ludicrous speed"

What was that?

That was Buttons..... he's gone to plaid

[a13x]

Cool Paul, cool. Yea just a misread (typical internet thing eh?) I wasn't trying to say that I know damn well I've been lucky!

Speaking of backmarkers. I don't mind them so much as long as they do their thing and stay put. I don't like erratic riders that go all over the track, fast or slow (that IMO is more dangerous). As Jeff Wood told me "Just ride like they aren't there" Hell if all those backmarkers go away.. then we'd have no LRRS. Not to mention... I'm a backmarker to a BUNCH of guys out there! hah.

[Nazo]

Originally posted by benVFR
Honestly it is interesting to hear you guys talking about the back markers.

Why don't they wave people off if they are that uncompetive and causing problems? Force them to pit in as they can't possibly win the race.

Usually they are in a different race altogether sharing the track at the same time.
They run 2 races at the same time often....one race always has fater bikes......sometimes TOO FAST.

FOR INSTANCE
I race on Sundays in the HeavyWeight Superbike race.....this is the largest engine displacement most highly modified class you can enter, and the second waive race out there is the Lighweight Grand Prix......SV 650's mixed with 750's and Literbikes???
Just seems like those two races don't mix well out there. After the 3rd lap its a big traffic mess.

[a13x]

Originally posted by Nazo


FOR INSTANCE
I race on Sundays in the HeavyWeight Superbike race.....this is the largest engine displacement most highly modified class you can enter, and the second waive race out there is the Lighweight Grand Prix......SV 650's mixed with 750's and Literbikes???
Just seems like those two races don't mix well out there. After the 3rd lap its a big traffic mess.

I know what you mean, but I think part of that (in that example) is because it's Novices. They don't mix em the same in the Am / Expert ranks.

In the Novice ranks.. you tend to have a big spread of speeds, with almost everyone doing mid 20's to low 30's, with a very few guys doing sub 25's. Regardless of what bike they are on. Hell I was running in 2nd in HWSS before I pulled out.. on a bike techincally slower than a stock SV.

I know what you mean.. I thought on it before and that's what I came up with.

[Paul_E_D]

Backmarkers are not dangerous IMO, people riding over their heads are dangerous. I know it can be frustrating when a backmarker messes up your lap, or makes you lose a place, but if it were easy, there'd be no glory in winning. It's part of the challenge.

The motogp guys have earned the right to race without backmarkers by WINNING (not wining) in series with plenty of them.

Besides, in some cases backmarkers are the future of the sport. You can't start out at the front. If it were that easy, I'd have no interest in it whatsoever. What I love about it is that you can't buy a victory (in most cases). You have to work incredibly hard at it to win even at the club (expert) level.