Speeding Citation Notes

[rpete]

This occurred in Brookline, MA.

I was given a citation for speeding, 51 mph in a 25 mph zone. It was on Hammond Pond Parkway just south of Rt 9, at the first southbound rotary. The stretch is a 40 mph zone until about 350 feet before the rotary where a 25 mph sign is posted. My contention will be that when LIDAR measured my speed I was still in the 40 mph zone.

The image below is what the state trooper wrote in the "Court" section of the citation. Is there any chance that these are some sort of notes about the LIDAR measurement? Is it possible that the 437.8 is the distance, or is it just too fine a precision to possibly be the distance?

Does it even make any sense to contest this? I'm only hoping to lower the fine from 26 mph over to 11 mph over. Can the magistrate even do that?

Thanks for any thoughts!

[scubasteveRR]

I'm pretty sure its how long he had you on the laser speed gun.

[RandyO]

I am not familiar with LEOs "lidar" capability but with the same technology in my surveying instruments, I have accuracy of 2ppm at distances up to a half mile in reflectorless mode and nearly 3 miles with reflectors, beam is narrow and precise. The only reason the LEOs measurement would be that rough is that it is hand held. You have a better chance arguing the LEO has Parkinson's

[ZX-12R]

Is it possible that the 437.8 is the distance, or is it just too fine a precision to possibly be the distance?

It's very possible that's the distance reported by the LIDAR gun and that is a reasonable resolution for a handheld unit. Randy's surveying equipment at 0.5 miles is 2ppm which is 0.06336" or better than 2mm.

If you remember where the cop was, see if 437.8' puts you in the 25mph zone. If it does, you may not get far in court.

I have no idea what the other 2 lines are for.

[tropicoz]

if cost isn't an issue, lawyer up and he/she will work a deal with the DA and plea it down. It's kind of pointless to go at it alone unless you have irrefutable proof to the contrary of what the officer wrote.

[Drewski]

This occurred in Brookline, MA.

I was given a citation for speeding, 51 mph in a 25 mph zone. It was on Hammond Pond Parkway just south of Rt 9, at the first southbound rotary. The stretch is a 40 mph zone until about 350 feet before the rotary where a 25 mph sign is posted. My contention will be that when LIDAR measured my speed I was still in the 40 mph zone.

The image below is what the state trooper wrote in the "Court" section of the citation. Is there any chance that these are some sort of notes about the LIDAR measurement? Is it possible that the 437.8 is the distance, or is it just too fine a precision to possibly be the distance?

Does it even make any sense to contest this? I'm only hoping to lower the fine from 26 mph over to 11 mph over. Can the magistrate even do that?

Thanks for any thoughts!

The magistrate can do anything from upholding the original citation to dismissing it altogether. It is absolutely worth the time and fee to get a magistrate hearing, especially since you are looking at an insurance surcharge for the moving violation. I was caught dead-to-rights going 47 in a 30 a few years back, spent the money to get a hearing and pleaded ignorance and admitted to possibly exceeding the limit for a short time and had the citation dismissed. Your past record will be a big factor as well as how agreeable you are with the magistrate to accept responsibility for it but you can explain the circumstances of the day. Good luck.

[rpete]

I count seven dashed lane markings on the road between the 25 mph speed limit sign and the rotary entrance, which was where the trooper was operating the LIDAR. My understanding is that these dashed markings are 10' long, with 30' space between them.

I think I have a good case.

[RandyO]

I count seven dashed lane markings on the road between the 25 mph speed limit sign and the rotary entrance, which was where the trooper was operating the LIDAR. My understanding is that these dashed markings are 10' long, with 30' space between them.

I think I have a good case.

get a tape out an measure, dash length and spaces is not very accurate, and ASHTO recommended length an spacing varies depending on the speed limit, actual length on the road depends on the guidos who were painting the lines, they are not precisely surveyed

[Pittenger5]

Look up the cost difference between 51 and 40. If there's not much difference, pleading down seems pointless, go for all or nothing.

[number9]

I am not familiar with LEOs "lidar" capability but with the same technology in my surveying instruments, I have accuracy of 2ppm at distances up to a half mile in reflectorless mode and nearly 3 miles with reflectors, beam is narrow and precise. The only reason the LEOs measurement would be that rough is that it is hand held. You have a better chance arguing the LEO has Parkinson's

That seems like a pretty shaky strategy

[rpete]

Look up the cost difference between 51 and 40. If there's not much difference, pleading down seems pointless, go for all or nothing.

I generally agree, but I don't have any plausible reason to contest the 51 mph measurement. The best I can do is argue that it was in the 40 mph zone instead of the 25 mph zone, and hope the magistrate throws the whole thing out. I've seen such generous magistrates before, and figured why not try?

Anyway, I'll present here any other arguments I come up with and hope someone will tell me if I'm being just plain stupid. I went back to that stretch of road tonight and was surprised at just how close the 25 mph zone is to the rotary. It's much closer than I recalled. Below is the Google Map image of the reduced speed zone. The 25 mph speed limit sign is at the top left corner, just before the complex driveway entrance. RandyO was certainly correct, those broken dashes and gaps are nowhere near uniform, although the dashes do appear about 10' long when looked at next to a car.

The Google Map "20 ft" scale is 30 mm on the printed page, and the straight line distance from the 25 mph sign to the rotary road surface is 210 mm, which puts the reduced speed zone length at around 140'.

[aldend123]

What happens when the officer claims he was measuring you over a period of 437 feet, and you maintained this speed through the 40 zone, in to the 25 zone, and carried in to the rotary? Where was the officer positioned? I assume somewhere beyond the 25 sign?

Is the "45" note because you told the officer during the stop that you believed it was a 45 zone? Have you checked in person to verify if it is? The Google Maps data is a few years old.

Either way, it sounds like you have a reasonable issue with this ticket and should pose your questions to the magistrate. Depending on the outcome, you can decide whether or not you want to pursue it in front of a Judge.

[rpete]

The trooper was basically standing in the triangular grassy area. I was being waved over and had come to a complete stop before ever entering the rotary. If the distances I've shown here are to be believed, I would almost have to have been standing on the brakes to do that starting from 51 mph in the 25 mph zone, and that just wasn't the case.

Thanks for mentioning the "45" (for some reason, previously I was reading it as 055" 45"), I now realize that notation was because when he asked how fast I thought I was going, I responded that I thought I was probably going 45 mph or so.

[sveesix]

I now realize that notation was because when he asked how fast I thought I was going, I responded that I thought I was probably going 45 mph or so.

If you admitted guilt to speeding you aren't really going to get any sort of break here. When an officer asks that, never admit your speed. He basically has you dead to rights.

[rpete]

I'm not contesting the accuracy of the LIDAR gun.

[sveesix]

I'm not contesting the accuracy of the LIDAR gun.

Do you have pictures from the stop? GoPro showing where you were pulled over?

It is his word against yours, and unfortunately his carries a bit more.

[PhilB]

If you admitted guilt to speeding you aren't really going to get any sort of break here. When an officer asks that, never admit your speed. He basically has you dead to rights.

You're right that one should never admit anything to the officer. However, what he admitted to was doing 45 in a 40, which normally won't get you a ticket. Again, he isn't contesting what his speed was measured at, but where it was measured.

Do you have pictures from the stop? GoPro showing where you were pulled over?
It is his word against yours, and unfortunately his carries a bit more.

Except that if the number there is the distance of the measurement, and that distance puts him in the 40 mph zone, then it isn't just his word against the officer; the officer's data does not match his claim.

PhilB

[sveesix]

You're right that one should never admit anything to the officer. However, what he admitted to was doing 45 in a 40, which normally won't get you a ticket. Again, he isn't contesting what his speed was measured at, but where it was measured.

Except that if the number there is the distance of the measurement, and that distance puts him in the 40 mph zone, then it isn't just his word against the officer; the officer's data does not match his claim.

PhilB

Is there really a normal anymore?

If you pursue this, if the magistrate doesn't cut you a break, take it to trial. Ask for all of the evidence the officer has that you can, delay delay delay.

[Danz19899]

Is there really a normal anymore?

If you pursue this, if the magistrate doesn't cut you a break, take it to trial. Ask for all of the evidence the officer has that you can, delay delay delay.

Do this if he doesn't cut you a break, I have a buddy who drives like an asshole and gets tickets all the time. I'm pretty sure once it goes past the magistrate the actual ticketing officer needs to show up for court. . . . . out of 5 times I think 1 has actually showed up. The other 4 times with no witnesses they had to clear him.

[rpete]

I'm pretty sure once it goes past the magistrate the actual ticketing officer needs to show up for court. . . . . out of 5 times I think 1 has actually showed up. The other 4 times with no witnesses they had to clear him.

I wonder if the state police are more diligent about showing up in court. Just an anecdote: I've gone to court twice in the last 20 years, the BPD officer didn't show but the MSP trooper did.

[RandyO]

The Google Maps data is a few years old.

3 or 4 years ago I would have agreed with that, past couple years though, Google has been updating images every 6 months ± the particular image posted is current within a week

[aldend123]

I had taken a quick look at the rotary from Street View and thought I remembered seeing an old date after closing the window. Didn't want to re-open but since it has come up, OP here's the 40mph sign, as of 2013. Today I learned you can also click the date and see old versions.

[Punjistick]

I wonder if the state police are more diligent about showing up in court. Just an anecdote: I've gone to court twice in the last 20 years, the BPD officer didn't show but the MSP trooper did.

In my experience MSP always show. It's overtime for them so why not. I've had much better luck with town or city police not appearing.

[rpete]

I went to court today, and the 437.8 was indeed the distance at which the LIDAR measurement was made. Seems that all MSP make a note of the distance for LIDAR citations, as the MSP representative knew it for each one being contested. So with a google maps measurement of the length of the reduced speed zone, I was able to show that I was still in the 40 mph zone rather than the 25 mph zone. The assistant clerk-magistrate agreed, and reduced the fine from $265 to $105, which was about all I could realistically hope for.

Most other offenders there were only offering a defense along the lines of "I drive that route every day and would never go that fast," but the clerk-magistrate was generally accommodating and offered everyone reduced fines but still a "responsible" finding (i.e., with a surcharge).

[carsick]

Was the speed reduced as well, so that your insurance does not go up as much?