WHO?: Tire Mounting and Balancing

[RandyO]

Originally posted by Karaya One
Having had the oppurtunity to see all three sides - customer, dealer and now distributor it amazes me how everyone thinks the dealers are making a fortune. I know the dealers aren't, and I sure as hell know the distributors aren't.

Parking lots full of AMG's at those shops, and each employee gets a free bike each season.

Nothing about just keeping the lights on, taxes, insurance, flooring, employee salaries, their benefits, paying to stock all those shelves of gear, etc etc etc....

I just want to see you ship that bike over the 'net to get fixed. That's the dream!

Dave, yer preachin to guys who don't understand the economics of running a business.

quite frankly, my dealer charges $65/hr for labor..... and I don't know how they can keep the doors open.. I don't know how they can afford to stock helmets & gear, with peeps tryin stuff on and then buying on the internet... I don't think its the dealers that are sleazy.... maybe more companies should follow Arai.

[Collision pro]

Originally posted by kmf
No Mike I don't.

There is nothing wrong with eating, but they are feasting and they cry poor us every chance they get.

By the way, where do you get your parts from?

Well I get my parts from my Suzuki dealer and Street & Comp or sometimes Ebay.

[Suf Daddy]

Maybe I should raise my prices?

Randy O: Please explain the Arai (helmet) story. I don't know it.
-Suf Daddy

Originally posted by RandyO
Dave, yer preachin to guys who don't understand the economics of running a business.

quite frankly, my dealer charges $65/hr for labor..... and I don't know how they can keep the doors open.. I don't know how they can afford to stock helmets & gear, with peeps tryin stuff on and then buying on the internet... I don't think its the dealers that are sleazy.... maybe more companies should follow Arai.

[BLaZNKrON]

Sure its nice to have dealers around incase you need them but I personally work hard for my money and I also don't make much so I shop around for the best deal. If a dealer wants to charge me $229 for 1 tire and I can get a set online for $200 Im ordering online. Why should I say screw it and give the dealer an extra $200 when I could put that $200 towards safety gear and something else that is important. I don't know of one dealership that will bend over backwards for their customers and treat us like you think we should treat these stealerships. Screw them. I buy everything I ever need on the internet anyway cuz it saves time and I don't have to leave my house and deal with all these assholes in stores and stuff. Thank god for the internet.

[RandyO]

Originally posted by Suf Daddy
Maybe I should raise my prices?

Randy O: Please explain the Arai (helmet) story. I don't know it.
-Suf Daddy

I am constantly raising my rates... you should have rates high enuf to live the lifestyle you want to live and be able to pay your employees a decent living also.

About a year ... maybe 2, Arai stopped all mail order and online sales of their helmets, you have to go to a dealer to get it properly fitted and buy it there.

[BLaZNKrON]

You can just call any Online Arai dealer and just get the price over the phone and order it. Thats how many of the helmet sites are doing it.

[Degsy]

My $.02

Unfortunately, most dealerships have been total assholes to customers in the rich years recently and people have long memories. Most people walk into a dealership and know they are about to be screwed. That is going to take a long time to fix.

I would not let Bettencourt's Honda wash my windshield a few years ago but slowly I am gaining confidence in them for the very few things I need them for (changing a chain on the racebike when KMF was out of town). I get a good discount on the parts counter because I am a long-time customer who has bought two bikes from them. Their parts (even with my discount) are more expensive than Ron Ayers, but I still use Bettencourt's for a few things, just to give them the business. They have shown me a lot of improvement in the past 3 years or so amd I like going there now. Brockton Cycle however, that's another story. They are scary. Good for leathers and helmets, very bad on parts, service and especially bike sales.

Motomarket has always been a great place to shop, friendly, informative and fair pricing, a real "biker's bike shop"

Having said that, I buy my tires at the track where fitting is free.

Here's an idea, buy your tires online or wherever you want, ride your bike to the track on a race weekend with your new tires around your neck/shoulders like a bandanna (or have the tires shipped to the track for pickup on a race weekend, UPS delivers right to the pits. Take your wheels off the bike at the track and take them and the tires to the Street and Comp guys who will fit them for $10 a rim.

degs

[Suf Daddy]

KMF:

Randy O:
Thanks for the info.
That seems to be a safety issue more than business decision based on supply and demand. Internet Vs. Brick and Mortar store.
If a helmet doesn't fit properly, that's a safety issue. IMHO.
-Suf Daddy

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RandyO
I am constantly raising my rates... you should have rates high enuf to live the lifestyle you want to live and be able to pay your employees a decent living also.

About a year ... maybe 2, Arai stopped all mail order and online sales of their helmets, you have to go to a dealer to get it properly fitted and buy it there. [/QUOTE

[R7]

Originally posted by Suf Daddy

Randy O:
Thanks for the info.
That seems to be a safety issue more than business decision based on supply and demand. Internet Vs. Brick and Mortar store.
If a helmet doesn't fit properly, that's a safety issue. IMHO.

I was talking to the guy at helmet shop.com in his store down in daytona and mentioned the internet sales, it certainly didn't sound like it was a safety issue arai was worried about from listening to him, it's all for the money

[Karaya One]

The Arai issue had two facets - liabilitly being one.

When a rider is in an accident, Attorney Lionel Hutz hits every person the line. So, the helmet company, the OEM, the tire company, etc. By asking for proper fitment in a shop, they hope to limit that exposure.

The second was pricing. Limiting interent sales helped keep pricing at a level Arai and its dealers found acceptable. The internet can really de-value a product, and the dealers could now make money selling it.

[Suf Daddy]

I like the Manch-Vega$ Pidegon guy idea.
My tires are here two for $140 Pirelli Diablos.

Anyone want to do a group tire mounting or similar arrangement?
-Suf Daddy

[stoinkythepig]

Mount them yourself. It's quite easy. I'd be happy to show you how. I started doing it when my local guy went from $220 a set to $310 a set (same tires) and at the same time increased his mounting price from $10 per rim to $18 per rim. Now I buy the tires online for $180 a set and I no longer need to spend a day without the bike while waiting for the tires to get mounted.

I cannot understand why some dealer hasn't figured out that they can sell a huge number of tires if they made the process easy and priced the tires competitively with internet shops. Buying bike tires should be as simple as bringing your car to NTB.

[beet]

shop thated work nice
sell um online 2

[Stoneman]

Originally posted by Suf Daddy
I like the Manch-Vega$ Pidegon guy idea.
My tires are here two for $140 Pirelli Diablos.

Anyone want to do a group tire mounting or similar arrangement?
-Suf Daddy

All right. How do I get in touch with this Pidgeon dude? Can anyone just call him outta the blue? Does he have an actual shop? Address? Phone number? Who do I say sent me?

[Honclfibr]

Originally posted by Stoneman
All right. How do I get in touch with this Pidgeon dude? Can anyone just call him outta the blue? Does he have an actual shop? Address? Phone number? Who do I say sent me?

Didn't I send you a PM about all that? No? Maybe not, err, well I meant to anyway.

The original thread is here:

http://www.nestreetriders.com/forum/...tires+southern

Guy just works out of his house, over on Gabrielle St, just past the dunks on south willow. He always seemed eager for new business, he's got a snap-on tire mounting/balancing thingie in his house or something. Whenever I call I get his voicemail it seems, I leave a msg with a phone # to call back and he gets back to me within an hour or so generally. Tell him I sent you, tell him you came of your own accord, tell him his coming was foretold to you in a dream...I'm pretty sure he'll mount your tires for you either way

[Suf Daddy]

I'll give him a call.
I'll dismount the tires too.

When is everyone going over?
-Suf Daddy

[Suf Daddy]

I'm with ya here..................stoinky.
I'm going to get a back up set of rims too, so I'll take you up on mounting them too just so I can learn. My back is okay the fronts BALD. I'm thinking to have spares incase something happens.

Red dots go at the valve stems?
-Suf Daddy

Originally posted by stoinkythepig
Mount them yourself. It's quite easy. I'd be happy to show you how. I started doing it when my local guy went from $220 a set to $310 a set (same tires) and at the same time increased his mounting price from $10 per rim to $18 per rim. Now I buy the tires online for $180 a set and I no longer need to spend a day without the bike while waiting for the tires to get mounted.

I cannot understand why some dealer hasn't figured out that they can sell a huge number of tires if they made the process easy and priced the tires competitively with internet shops. Buying bike tires should be as simple as bringing your car to NTB.

[Thorshammer]

Degs,

Glad we are earning your service business again. With over 120 years combined service experience and the only shop in the area to have the previous District Service Manager for ASMC as our service manager, we not only really try to do a great job, but try to keep the costs in check. 25.00 gets your tire properly mounted and a dynamic spin balance and the rim cleaned.

No one has really answered this question well. So here goes:

The main reason you are asked where you bought your tires is liability. When you mount a tire, your shop accepts a certain amount of liability. You have heard the saying, If the price is too good, something is wrong, or, you get what you pay for. Probably heard these sayings before. Many times I will accept a tire purchased elsewhere, and charge the customer the exact same amount if he/she bought it from the parts department. Some of them (dealers) won't. Is it a second, or a blem, how do you know.

You must be very carefull and inspect the tire you receive from the mail order company. Especially the bead area. If there appears to be a line of rubber (like I have seen on dozens of mail order Dunlops recently) on the outer bead area, we won't mount it. This tire was sold to the mail order house at a reduced price because it was a second or blem. The line of rubber is the result of a molding flaw when the rubber in the mold was two different temperatures. This causes the rubber not to flow properly in the mold and the line is the result. The problem is "IF" the rubber separates, your tire pressure drops and the tire... well you know.

The other blem which is not as easily detected is the out of round or out of balance problem. Some companies quality limits + or - numbers are pretty big. As a shop we don't accept tires that need over 60 grams of weight. Our experience shows that that tire is prone to becoming out of round and causing vibration and or front end wobbles, great if your a stunt guy, but not if your looking to get any mileage out of the tire.

These previous two problems WILL reduce the price of the tire. The tire manufacturers know a dealer won't accept it, but a wholesaler will, why, because if it cheap enough, no one will care. Why should you care...... keep reading.

Here is what happened last week. CC (customer complaint) "Unit vibrates at 65mph". He ordered a pair of tires mail order and mounted them himself. His buddy who works for another shop, balanced them, and he saved a bundle!!! But his wobble was worse than ever. So after 1800 miles, he came to us, just a local dealer. What we found was:

A radial in the rear, a bias ply in the front, the incorrect sized rear and the front tire was out of round by 1.8mm. He was pissed when I told him he needed a pair of tires. Then he wanted our dealership to get him a refund/warranty on his incorrect sized/mismatched out of round tires that he bought mail order.

Did he save a bundle, not really, we had them in stock, mounted them while he waited and adjusted his steering stem bearings properly (there is a spec, not just "until it stops wiggling"), which was his primary problem to begin with. Had he stopped in, we would have suggested a steering stem bearing adjustment after we had checked his first set of tires.

A good dealership has factory trained mechanics, manufacturer support, and a tremendous amount of experience. Find one that suits your lifestyle, and stay with them. Ask questions about balancing, mounting. tire wear, pressure settings and warranty. Then try the same thing from your mail order company, but leave out the conversation about balancing, mounting, tire wear,warranty or someone to go to if you have a problem. Many of the people that sell tires have never seen what the tire looks like after it has been used, which is an excellent indicator on how the tire actually works, or does'nt.

Hope this answers some questions on why dealers are reluctant to mount tires bought elsewhere.


Good luck guys,

E

[Ri_De_bike]

^
makes a good point
maybe with kenda and chen shing. expect good QC with major brands. then take your tires to degsy.

[The Snowman]

Oh boy, now I'm confused....

I need to purchase both front & rear for my CBR and am not the richest guy around.

So, what I've read is not to necessarily trust online dealers? The tires I want I've been quoted $285 and $260 from 2 different local sources. At last look, I could get these for just over $240 w/ shipping. And they're not Chen Shings either, they're Avon Azaros.

I've heard good things about Degsy's work and he doesn't charge a whole lot for R&R, mounting, and balancing ($50 for everything for both tires).

So, how do I know who to trust when ordering tires?????

[richw]

A big company like Dunlop or any other major would not SELL any tire they thought was mechanically unsound... especially into the USA where they have assets and there is a Lawyer under every other rock.

Are there blems; probably but it would have to be deemed as cosmetic flaws only.

I have been mounting and static balancing my own tires for 35 years and knock on wood; never a problem.

It takes less time out of my life then going to and from the dealer. All 3 local dealers wanted list price and a deposit before they ordered the tires I'ld want. Then I would have to make a 2nd trip to actually get the tires. I regret the passing of many old ways of doing things but the future is now. If a dealer promoted his tire business he probably would make out but their psychology is against them.

My current bead breaker made of 2x4s and a hinge cost $8 but you do need a compressor with a tank to set the beads. I use my saw horses as a balancing stand.

With a real tire machine and balancer it would take about 5 minute each for a shop to do your tires so they should be happy to do it but it seems a universal MC dealership policy. Maybe they get a total of $80 per tire from some and don't want to lose that vs a volume business at $20.

It America be free to do what is a value to you.

[Thorshammer]

Rich,

Very interesting your point of view. Also, nothing wrong with static balancing, we used it for years in road racing. But in Road racing you also get the best of the best when it comes to tires. Some are better than others. Also the tires are only on the rims for a few hours, not thousands of miles. Back a few years, if you were a fast guy, you could get a Dunlop that required NO WEIGHTS, none, nada . It was very nice. That is not the case with what you purchase over the counter or computer.

I understand your frustration with your local dealers, but let me give you a dealer perspective on your comments.

Why do you have to pay half down on your tire you are ordering? Because some schmuck before you, ordered stuff (tires, chains, hard parts) and NEVER picked them up. So who stuck holding the bag, the dealer. So the recklessness of others has caused a business decision to be made to eliminate a loss. Unfortunately, this makes it more difficult for you to do business. Our dealership will place orders (without deposit) for our regular customers. The dealer just wants to be sure he does not get stuck with 300-400 dollars of tires he won't sell for a year. Don't blame the dealer for the actions of customers, and if you approached the parts manager about the situation, and he knew you were a regular customer, any businessman would make a proper business decision and order your tires without deposit. Remember be nice and ask, don't demand. Honey gets more bees than vinegar.

As for my previous post, I forgot to mention old stock. Not only are blems sold for less money, but so are old stock tires. We have seen production dates in excess of 3 years on some mail order tires. Tires that have been sitting for three years are not as good as tires that are 6 months old. Many companies liquidate their old inventory in bulk, and on line stores buy it again at a reduced price. Is it possible to buy an old tire from a dealer, yes it is, but it is not the norm. Many times, when ordering the, distributor sends what he has. We have the option to send them back, and do, when they don't meet our standards.

Not to start anything here, but I agree with the thought that a tire manufacturer will not sell you an unsafe tire, however, they WILL sell you a tire that will take alot of weight (blem) and won't last as long. As for incomplete molding, I have seen that as well. I have seen the following defects: Incomplete molding, out of round tires, tires that require an extreme amount of weights, bump, bulges, and dry cracking (new tire, old production date). These were all tires that have been purchased by the customer "somewhere else" (ie... mail order, internet, my buddy?) I have seen one tire from our dealership supply that was unacceptable. We did not mount it, sent it back to the distributor and I am sure someone is buying it online for a reduced price.

I wish everyone good luck in their tire purchasing, Good tires cost money, just make sure what you are paying has value. If you are going to burn it off, don't spend alot, but if you are looking for mileage and performance, "you better think, you better think about the consequences of your actions". At least thats what Aretha said.


E



Post Script: had to do the light sabres for my little boy, nothing to do with this post.

[Degsy]

Erik, excellent posts, and I have to say that I agree with you 100%. I'm a longtime Bettencourt's Customer (mainly race and service parts for my F4i).

I now mount and balance tires at my house for a bunch of people. I charge a nominal amount to cover my costs and do the job right. I use a manual bead breaker and a mount/dismount tool. The equipment cost me $900 total. I also static balance.

90% of the tires I am changing are Michelin Pilot Powers, with the occasional Dunlop Qualifier or Avon Azzaros. I inspect them when they come in to make sure they are round (no egg shapes from incorrect storage), that the bead has no 'flare' (my word for that thin rubber stuff that can be attatched to the bead), and that the tires are not years old. All the tires I have mounted have been new designs so I haven't had to worry about old old tires...yet.

I have found more and more lately that the Michelins are requiring very little weight to balance them. I balance the rears to 1/4 of an ounce and the fronts to 1/8 of an ounce and take a lot of time over balancing. Yesterday, I mounted a set of Pilot Powers to some SV650 rims for someone and they required a lot of weight to get right (1 1/4 oz front, 1 3/4 oz rear). That is about as far as I will go (1 3/4 oz is 50grams). I have never had to use any more than that.

My advice to people is this:

Order your tires mail order if you like, but be prepared to have a dealer charge a premium if you get them mounted at a dealership. They have liability to worry about and they have to make sure that the tires are good quality before they mount them.

If you want to order your tires from a dealership, talk to them AT THE TIME OF THE ORDER about maybe getting a break on the mounting and balancing cost. Dealers want your continued business, not an alienated customer.

Also, remember that the mail order companies are ordering hundreds of sets of tires at a time, the dealer might sell 3 or 4 sets a week, that reflects in the dealer's cost from the distributer.

Save money by taking your own wheels off the bike and taking them to the dealer (or me for that matter) CLEAN (the guy mounting the tires will thank you for it). Think about it, the mechanic is taking time to balance your wheels to the nearest 1/4 oz and you bring in wheels with 2 ounces of dirt and grime on them. People who have had their tires changed by me have seen me wash the wheels down while they are on the changer, that's not just an "added service", it's so I can balance them properly and I don't get myself covered in chainlube and oil while I'm working on them.

Welcome to NESR Erik, now, how about some discount on service for members?

derek

[richw]

I fear your cogent replies would not seem typical of my experience at most shops especially with the "parts" counter.

For 15 years I bought from a shop that gave me a 10% discount that put me within 10 or 15 percent of mail order price. They also were responsible and would order stuff for me if I called over the phone. I accepted the upcharge for periodic timely advice etc. Surprisingly the parts guys became 1/2 owners and all that went out the window. List price or worse and even high balling oem parts.

I agree about any level of shenanigans possible when dealing with the public... Once I needed a motocross tire for an event forced to go to a nearby dealer. He looked me in the face and told me a Chen Sing was an exotic manufacturer and a 3.25 x 21 could be had in my hand for $95. and it was dusty old to boot.

If there was a dealer nearby me that I could bring my rims et tire on tire off for like 50 over my normal cost I would do it.

Set of 190 etc Qualifiers were $236 delivered to my door by the big brown truck. Last year my dealer thought he could put a set of bt014 on my rims for about 450... they are 219 mail order. Of course he did not have them and he would order them. Oh yah and no tax for another 6% SO $13

The changes in the world have made my business tougher too. I sell my wire for abut the same $$ that I did 12 years ago so inflation has eroded most of my profits. Of course my New gixer was within 500 of a 97 yamaha so 3rd world costing helps.

I would be curious if a metro Boston dealer took the step to see if there was $ and peripheral sales from discount tires with mounting. Also letting the customer demount the wheels in the lot if he wanted too.
Could you sell like 180/120 pilot powers for $300 balanced on the customers presented wheels. $350 and 2 hr service for the bike by itself.

[Degsy]

Originally posted by richw
Could you sell like 180/120 pilot powers for $300 balanced on the customers presented wheels. $350 and 2 hr service for the bike by itself.

Good question,

Erik? How about it?

derek