Amateur Championship

[SVRACER01]

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The NCAA championship is a joke.
I won an AM championship. I'm very proud of it and worked hard to get it.
And after I won that, the next season, I moved to expert.
Everyone wants to eventually be good enough (or feel that they are) to be an expert. Why shouldn't they be rewarded for their efforts on how they get there?
Nv points/championships? I don't see why we should. Nv is designed to be a stepping stone or a trial period to get into racing.
If someone is too scared or not confident enough to run in EX then they should stay in AM chances are they aren't winning anyway. People who win in AM don't stay there for more than a season.

[SVRACER01]

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I agree that if you win an AM "championship" (or whatever they call it now) you should have to bump. (i think that's the rule, it was for me)
I also think that if you consistently finish last or don't get any points you should be bumped down.
I remember an AM race against zak and Zev that on the 2nd lap we caught the EXs. Our opening lap was faster than any of their fastest laps for that race....probably even their PB.
Face it....there's people in AM that should be in EX and people in EX that should be back in AM. And it will probably always be that way.
They made all these lap time thresholds but will they enforce them the other way and make people bump down?

[Mustang]

If people sandbag for championships in am, novice guys will be more likely to hold back (due to large grids with huge lap time differnetials in am), which will make it more intimidating for novice guys. Most people who pick a high-intensity individual sport thrive on self improvement and getting better/faster each time at the track - and the business unit thrives on back-filling positions of those who bump up or leave the sport. I think it's always prohibiting to a sport when the entry-level is overly skilled or intimidating to newcomers. It's clear as day there's a trickle-down effect - hey the Ex guys could complain about the "sandbaggers" who not only run pro races, but come back to take the contingencies and winnings from the expert guys who only run LRRS. (these sandbaggers are more than likely helping motivate you proposed amateur sandbaggers).

Now, if less folks bumped up, the expert classes would shrink, contingencies would lessen, and other leagues would become more attractive to the elite group - and that talent would walk away.

I'm not too emotional about this - just trying to provide an additional perspective to the ones other people have expressed.

What novice racers are going to sandbag and stay in novice?? I'll admit that it's a cool feeling podiuming/winning in NV, and def an ego boost to tell people at work/home that I came home winning race(s), but wtf does it mean when you're "only" running 28s and "only" (after Round 1) getting piece of paper? I (and I know other NV's as well) can't wait to bump to AM - fully knowing we'll be back markers - but I'm hoping the AMs will be carrots for me, pulling me to be a better/faster rider. Sure, having AM sandbaggers would possibly prevent me from winning AM races (which, consequently, would suck)...but that possibility wouldn't make me hold back as a NV at all

I won an AM championship. I'm very proud of it and worked hard to get it.
And after I won that, the next season, I moved to expert.
Everyone wants to eventually be good enough (or feel that they are) to be an expert. Why shouldn't they be rewarded for their efforts on how they get there?
Nv points/championships? I don't see why we should. Nv is designed to be a stepping stone or a trial period to get into racing.

How is winning an "AM Championship" any different than NV per-race awards? I don't think anyone was suggesting NV championships in this thread, or elsewhere...physical recognition for podiums yes, championships no

[CBR929RE]

How is winning an "AM Championship" any different than NV per-race awards? I don't think anyone was suggesting NV championships in this thread, or elsewhere...physical recognition for podiums yes, championships no

I'd actually be pissed if I won a Novice championship. if I'm stuck there all year I'm gonna punch myself in the face for being such a bitch on track.

[BrianC]

Thought I'd offer my 2cents just because this thread won't go away... Basically, I look at the progression of nov. to am. and am. to ex. as a natural one, whereby sandbagging isn't even an issue. My approach to this sport is to go as fast as possible, and to take the lap record and set that as a goal to beat. Along the way, as I learn the track and improve as a racer, if I win races or accumulate the most points in a class, that should be recognized for what it is... . Novice may be an entry level class, so a win in novice should be recognized as a win against other entry level riders. A domination of an amateur season is just that and should be recognized, because those other riders have basically the same experience. No matter the trophies, or championships, once a rider gets their lap times to an appropriate level, they naturally should want to bump. In the event that someone gets to the threshold and stays there winning all the trophies/championships... who cares? I know I don't and would consider that person just one more racer that I need to be faster than. The trophies and championships for the lower classes are necessary because the road to expert is a long one for most, and there needs to be some motivation to race along the way. The fun of racing is great, but noone can truly admit that racing isn't better when there is an actual "win" or "championship" on the line.... it is what makes racing racing.

[Chippertheripper]

I know you consider that cat that just stays in am winning the next guy that you need to be faster than, but how come he shouldn't naturally want to bump? That's kind of the essence of the whole thing here. They don't give the am champ just so that one faster guy doesn't hang out just to get it.

Personally, the best reward for racing was to make it easier to come back and do it again. Ie: credits. If I can keep myself at it longer, there's a better chance I can compete with the real-deal fast guys in my respective class. Lap records aren't really in my sights, especially after hearing about 15's on a 125gp....my mind is still bent from that.

[BrianC]

Yeah I hear ya chip, but even if "that guy" hangs out just to get trophies, he's still just another cat to beat. It's good motivation to finally hand that person a defeat. The current structure of bump thresholds kind of doesn't make any sense to me... on the one hand you have a novice threshold that will bump you fairly easily, but in am the threshold is something like 14's for mw... there are definitely going to be some "fast" ams stuck at the top doing 15' and 16's who maybe just can't go any faster. I think the am to ex threshold should be alittle more reasonable to get those guys out of there a little earlier. And I do think it should be a mandatory bump just like novice.

I know you consider that cat that just stays in am winning the next guy that you need to be faster than, but how come he shouldn't naturally want to bump? That's kind of the essence of the whole thing here. They don't give the am champ just so that one faster guy doesn't hang out just to get it.

Personally, the best reward for racing was to make it easier to come back and do it again. Ie: credits. If I can keep myself at it longer, there's a better chance I can compete with the real-deal fast guys in my respective class. Lap records aren't really in my sights, especially after hearing about 15's on a 125gp....my mind is still bent from that.

[TTD]

This thread is pretty long, so not sure if someone already said this...

Are Scott G., Eric W., etc "sandbagging" by not going to AMA or WSBK or Moto GP?

Their times and results consistently have them winning races, so using the logic of some - they should "bump".

I guess my point is that LRRS is club racing and for most it's just a fun hobby. The track is not selling a stepping stone to professional racing (although a few riders do go on, the vast majority never go beyond LRRS).

Because of this fact, the track is really selling "fun" with a competitive angle.

If you're in the business of selling "fun", then you should be doing everything possible to get your customers to come back over and over.

I think that rewarding people of all levels is a good business move. It's not rewarding "mediocrity" - it's rewarding your customers for spending their time and dollars with your businesss.

I think it comes down to this...

If you are super competitive and the only thing you care about is beating the best... then move up as fast as you can and race with the top experts... and if you beat them, move on to AMA, etc.

If you look at LRRS racing as a fun way to spend time/money and have zero delusions of ever getting to the front of the expert pack - then you should be able to race against others that are at your level - and you should be rewarded with recognition (because it is a smart business move mainly)

And yes, I agree with a one calendar year limit on those winning/finishing top in lots of races at the Amateur level... mainly because of the contingency money involved. That money is useful to those riders looking to progress up through the ranks, so it's not fair for a lifetime amateur to keep grabbing it.

[Slowpoke387]

Well said. I agree completely and so far out of 3 pages here someone finally simplified and made 100% sense of the whole issue. I agree that this is supposed to be fun and also for most, a club level fun. Which means if you want to attract new riders to the club, offer trophies and championships all the way along the way to EX. It simply adds motivation for some riders to come back, have fun, spend $, and have a short term realistic goal to chase, even if they're not racing the top dogs in EX. Just make the top 3guys in every class bump every yr as long as the times are good, along with the normal bumps.
We need more racers, why not offer what they want? The top few guys will ultimately be forced to bump. Let em have fun along the way and they're more likely to stick around longer and bring friends. I don't see it cheapening the entire series at all.