Amateur Championship

[OreoGaborio]

Yeah that's a good point. Forgot about the "multiple class competitiveness" situation. Because of that, an overall Amateur Championship race would never be fair to everyone that wants to compete for it, however the same can be said, and for the same reason, about the Rookie of the Year award. A rider on a 600 has a much better chance at it.

Of course the same goes for the #1 overall plate. It's all about who spends the most and earns the most points... That's just how it is.

Bottom line (for me): I don't think it's that much of a deal. I'm for whatever improves overall attendance and quality of the racers at the track. I wouldn't really have much of a problem with Amateur "achievement" award, however they wanna decide the winner, as there's some pretty talented guys out there with yellow plates. While I'd like to see them with white plates on sooner rather than later, I wouldn't have a problem with them getting recognized for their efforts.

[smf]

However, I like the idea of time based advancement used in conjuntion with points. If we adopt a "championship" or "achievement" award, then letting people stay for the remainder of ONE year is good by me. They can go to Daytona and race the ROC as an Amatuer and then come back the next season as an expert.

this is the right way to go imo.

btw, i 'stayed' am 2 races longer than i needed to so i could do the RoC. pretty awesome memories. and yup. i sandbagged for 2 races

[Manny]

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I'm not a racer, but with only 7 or 8 weekends a year why don't they just require you to spend a season in novice and then a season in am before bumping?

Would that not improve the quality of racing in each class as well as give racers more time to develope and learn skills? Or if novice isn't appropriate for a full year than you can enter am mid year but the next season you stay a full year.

Why is it so important for people who will likely never win an expert race to bump so fast?

[OreoGaborio]

While I kinda like that idea, "a season" is different for everyone, though. Some people only do a few race weekends per year. Some only do one or two races a weekend while some do 5 or 6 or even more. Thus a "time stamp" in each class would be different for each rider. You could feasibly have Novices with as little as 5-10 race finishes under their belt at the end of the year and Novices with as many as 30-40 races under their belt at the end of the year.

A certain # of race finishes would be more appropriate and that's kinda what's in place now, with the addition of a lap time requirement depending on what class you run.

[PainfullySlow]

I remember the year They gave the AM awards to the most total points earned. IE the people who entered the most races and spent the most $$$. A lot of fast good riders were left out because there was simply not enough classes to compete in. where the middleweight guys had like 6 races a weekend the ultralight and Ptwins guys had 3 at best.

I just think the current Class structure is not set up for it. An Am championship just means everyone that was better then you has already bumped. And you "held out the longest" You can stay in AM as long as you like if you feel it will help your development as a racer. Just Don't expect to be recognized and rewarded for it.

It would be different If maybe You were required to spend an entire season in AM.

Some very valid points. I dont know how it could be made to work fairly in the current system, some changes to the structure would certainly be necessary.

All I know is that my times are getting better but I still havent taken a 1st place. I dont want to bump to EX until that happens at least once because frankly my chances of doing it with white plates are pretty slim :-p

[Io-bot]

An Am championship just means everyone that was better then you has already bumped. And you "held out the longest" You can stay in AM as long as you like if you feel it will help your development as a racer.

Thats just simply not true... some people make it their goal to get the expert plates as SOON as possible and in the end up being back markers in the EX class and lappers for the front of the AM class. There are things to be learned in the AM class prior to bumping, one of those things could be how to compete for points, good weather or bad, class selection and so on. Moving up to EX cant be the end all of LRRS.

[Doc]

Moving up to EX cant be the end all of LRRS.

But it is. Or at least it always has been. I see the want for an Amatuer Championship... I see that some people want to stay in amatuer their whole racing "Career"n but the standard isn't the same as the expert class because of too many variables so how can you expect the same recognition?

I remember when there WAS an Amatuer Championship and I was rooting for friends to earn them in their respective classes. It sucked for my friends when they made it an "Achievement Award" but I could understand the rationale. I also understood the purpose of the amatuer class was to feed the expert class.

I never got a win in amatuer (just a 2nd and a 3rd), would I have liked one? Sure, If I stuck around long enough all the fast guys would bump and I would be top dog and I could collect alot, but I knew where I wanted to be, In expert racing the guys with the most experience and the fastest times, it is where all the fast Amatuers were going too.

I have yet to be lapped by an amatuer.

[OreoGaborio]

An Am championship just means everyone that was better then you has already bumped.

Thats just simply not true...

Uhh... YES it is...

If you win the AM Championship it does NOT mean you're the best or fastest Amateur. It only means two things:
1) You were the AM with the most points that didn't bump to Expert (or maybe you did and you just earned enough Expert points to stay in the AM points lead)
2) There were AMs that WERE better than you, but for whatever reason, they just didn't earn as many points.

Dave.... as hard as it might be for your huge ego to believe it, there WERE Amateurs that were faster than you during the 2010 season that bumped to Expert during the year.

[Pigman]

Its really simple......You want a trophy BUMP..........if not just stay in the AM and win every race and feel like your Da man, but don't expect them to change things cause your winning....

[Io-bot]

Dave.... as hard as it might be for your huge ego to believe it, there WERE Amateurs that were faster than you during the 2010 season that bumped to Expert during the year.

Wow Pete, way to stay mature and boil down this entire thread to something this retarded. I never said i was the fastest or the best AM. And with my single win in the 2010 season i know there are plenty of fast guys that were in AM and bumped out mid year, end of year and still stuck around.

I also find it kinda funny how you can stay in one thread give the NV trophies but in this thread say that AM dont deserve to compete for their "own" championship as we... well, whats the logic?

Also, being the fastest doesn't make you the best racer, we all know this. And giving the AM a reason to race smart (for points) vs the best single lap time of that race is prob a wise decision (I dont know, im not wise... thats why i posted this here, to get your un-emotional, objective and rational point of view).

Bottom line, i dont think any "fast" AM wants to stick around his entire racing career in AM just to collect wood or to win a none-existing championship. And im sure there could be rules put into place that state top 3 for the year get auto bumped.

[Io-bot]

Its really simple......You want a trophy BUMP..........if not just stay in the AM and win every race and feel like your Da man, but don't expect them to change things cause your winning....

Yeah... feel free to say the same thing in the NV Trophy discussion thread

And this isnt about me, or any other single person chasing a pipe dream... personally i think it has great benefits for the organization (highlighted in the email) and for the riders to come a year or 3 from now.

I mean... WERA and every other organization seems to think its ok and its working just fine, why is LRRS different (other than the fact that it never had it and it would make some people unhappy that now the AM would and they themselves never did)?

[Doc]

2006 Amatuer Championship points standings http://www.lrrsracing.com/2006/amateurs_champ.pdf

2007 Amatuer Championship points standings. http://www.lrrsracing.com/2007/Amateurs.pdf

They did call it a Championship.

[Io-bot]

2006 Amatuer Championship points standings http://www.lrrsracing.com/2006/amateurs_champ.pdf

2007 Amatuer Championship points standings. http://www.lrrsracing.com/2007/Amateurs.pdf

They did call it a Championship.

Im not sure for which side you are arguing with this...

But, in my eyes, and just like stated in the email, if you are calculating championship points and you did/do call it a championship why not recognize it officially?

[butcher bergs]

I know that if I had a hard-on for an AM Championship I'd be racing with an organization that offered it.



CCS is not WERA

[Chippertheripper]

Its really simple......You want a trophy BUMP..........if not just stay in the AM and win every race and feel like your Da man, but don't expect them to change things cause your winning....

I suport this message, in here, and in the novice thread.

[Io-bot]

I have yet to see any solid argument against this idea... Maybe I never will. Maybe Eric and I are the only ones that would like to see some kind of change to the current structure and culture of LRRS, be it for this year or for the next. Maybe the reasons I bring forward for the changes would not in fact benefit the organization... I dont know, thats why I asked.

[CBR929RE]

I see no problem with awarding an Amateur Championship. but you get a bump the next year if you can do expert times. Like if you win a championship and win races cause all the faster AMs bumped already but you're only doing 18s (on a MW for example) then you should probably stay an AM. there's ways to do it that its still nice to be congratulated if you do win but encourage you to bump.

[smf]

2006 Amatuer Championship points standings http://www.lrrsracing.com/2006/amateurs_champ.pdf

2007 Amatuer Championship points standings. http://www.lrrsracing.com/2007/Amateurs.pdf

They did call it a Championship.

well. if they do it they need to get the points right. I wasn't an AM until the last race of the year in 07

I see no problem with awarding an Amateur Championship. but you get a bump the next year if you can do expert times. Like if you win a championship and win races cause all the faster AMs bumped already but you're only doing 18s (on a MW for example) then you should probably stay an AM. there's ways to do it that its still nice to be congratulated if you do win but encourage you to bump.

I dunno about regional, but if you win a RoC you bump automatically. I suspect it's the same for regional, but not sure.

I don't care which way this goes, but there is 1 big diff between NV and AM, there's more $$ available to AMs (contingency) so there is a little more incentive to stay there a little longer if you work the system (disclaimer: I never bothered much at all with that part of racing).

[Kitt]

dude, making it a goal to win an am. "championship" really is weak... Just to be able to what, convince people who don't know better that you were the top? The top of what? Like-minded guys who "held back" from leaping into the best of the LRRS?

You've defeated yourself from being an expert, why are you so determined to win "Am trophy" battles on the webs? I know for a fact some dudes on EX's made some trophy's up for themselves, maybe that would work?

[Io-bot]

I look forward to being an EX kitt, you should know that. But I'm no where near quick enough to make the bump (in my opinion) and 17s-18s won't cut it when there are AMs running 15s-16s.

There is good competition where I am right now and I feel I have a lot to still learn. But this thread isn't about me, make the changes next year for all I care I'll be EX by then. I still think it would better our sport.

[daviid]

I dunno about regional, but if you win a RoC you bump automatically. I suspect it's the same for regional, but not sure.

am -> ex
Win a regional championship
Finish top 5 at the RoC
Total 400 points in the last 12 months

[SVRACER01]

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I think it's another step towards American Mediocrity!

This is a funny statement because even though you have EX plates.....you're still an AM in the eyes of professional racing.
LRRS could be considered this mediocrity that you speak of since its not at the pro level, yet we give out championships for that. Some might even argue that LRRS is not even at the AM level because that's what WERA is.

[Kitt]

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This is a funny statement because even though you have EX plates.....you're still an AM in the eyes of professional racing.
LRRS could be considered this mediocrity that you speak of since its not at the pro level, yet we give out championships for that. Some might even argue that LRRS is not even at the AM level because that's what WERA is.

I think that the expert classes at Loudon are hand-in-hand with the bulk of the wera guys (their fast guys ride with our fast guys, and their back-markers are slowwwwwwwwww).

I am looking at it in a league/series more than on a world-wide or national level. I don't think there's any shame in having championships and awards for every league in sports, but if we start handing out "starter MVP" "bench warmer MVP" etc, then we reward the mediocrity of the league.

I think as a business unit, LRRS wants as many people working hard to advance and spend the time and money needed to commit to the elite class - giving these interim pieces of accomplishment will lessen the drive & motivation to excel and be among the top riders, IMO.

Oh, and buy your theory, NCAA championship is a joke, because it's not the NBA.

[The Outlaw]

I think as a business unit, LRRS wants as many people working hard to advance and spend the time and money needed to commit to the elite class - giving these interim pieces of accomplishment will lessen the drive & motivation to excel and be among the top riders, IMO.

Please elaborate. How does LRRS benefit from everyone eventually moving towards expert? Do races cost more? Do they get money from tire vendors or other vendors?

I ask because I feel as business model LRRS would do better to get more people competing overall. And giving the everyday Joe who does not have a major sponsorship something to shoot for would bring more competitors. Cause it's pretty much a fact that 99% of the people racing will never win a expert championship.


I'll also add. I'm one of those lame guys that wants to win an amateur Championship. After all I'm a mediocre racer.

[Kitt]

Please elaborate. How does LRRS benefit from everyone eventually moving towards expert? Do races cost more? Do they get money from tire vendors or other vendors?

I ask because I feel as business model LRRS would do better to get more people competing overall. And giving the everyday Joe who does not have a major sponsorship something to shoot for would bring more competitors. Cause it's pretty much a fact that 99% of the people racing will never win a expert championship.


I'll also add. I'm one of those lame guys that wants to win an amateur Championship. After all I'm a mediocre racer.

If people sandbag for championships in am, novice guys will be more likely to hold back (due to large grids with huge lap time differnetials in am), which will make it more intimidating for novice guys. Most people who pick a high-intensity individual sport thrive on self improvement and getting better/faster each time at the track - and the business unit thrives on back-filling positions of those who bump up or leave the sport. I think it's always prohibiting to a sport when the entry-level is overly skilled or intimidating to newcomers. It's clear as day there's a trickle-down effect - hey the Ex guys could complain about the "sandbaggers" who not only run pro races, but come back to take the contingencies and winnings from the expert guys who only run LRRS. (these sandbaggers are more than likely helping motivate you proposed amateur sandbaggers).

Now, if less folks bumped up, the expert classes would shrink, contingencies would lessen, and other leagues would become more attractive to the elite group - and that talent would walk away.

I'm not too emotional about this - just trying to provide an additional perspective to the ones other people have expressed.