Give a Novice some Advice!

[bdawkins20]

Hey guys,

I ride a 1st gen sv 650 #988

I have done a number of trackdays and started racing last year. My first race I did a best of 1:37 with spent year old tires. I then got new tires a did a race best of 1:30.5

This year my race best was a 1:31.4 or something like that and it was for the most part consistent. I was disappointed because I wanted to brake into the 20's.

My question is- Someone running those times, what are they usually doing wrong? I have done the penguin school for the past couple years and I will most likely do it again and really ask eric a lot of questions. When you guys started out, where were your times and what were some of your hurdles?

I did the keith code school a couple years ago and did a 1:25 on their zx-6s and was considering starting with one of those. It seemed unanimous that everyone recommended a sv. I must admit these are kinda a handful for me as I haven't had much time on the street with a v-twin. I have noticed that I blow the drive out of some corners not being in the right gear and it seems a bitch to rev match entering a corner. otherwise it is fun to ride! So like I said.....With those lap times, does it indicate anything to you other than being slow. when you guys were running comparable times what happenend that made you guys go faster?????

-link

[Degsy]

a twin should be easier to rev match. you are probably on completely wrong gearing.

[butcher bergs]

First off, a warm welcome to NESR.

Secondly, change your thinking!

My question is- Someone running those times, what are they usually doing wrong?

Don't use the word "wrong"....look at it as "there's always room for improvement"....and there is.

"Wrong" does not allow for improvement. "Having goals" does.

There are a many things that allowed me to go faster.
Here are a few:
- Starting off on brand new tires
- Setting up the bike to my liking
- Hate to say it but, crashing
- Watching faster riders
- Constantly honing my body to motorcycle interaction (get loose on the bars!)


There are so many other factors as to why you have yet to hit your goals. One is fairly obvious...the fact that you are not comfortable on your machine. Not having the trust and comfort in your machine is probably your biggest hinderance right now, IMHO.

[senecak19]

Everyone faces the same challenge you have in that, "were all in a race against ourselves". Don't get discouraged. Try different things. All the feedback shown herein is 100% valid. I'm going to have to agree with Bergs last statement as a starting point. Go watch other riders. And when I say "watch" other riders, I don't mean sit in turn 3 and watch them go around. Watch their body movement. Get a feel for where they're braking markers are. Where are they getting on the gas. As you know, there's a lot going on out there and the devils in the details!

Best part is, its free to watch (sort of).

[pasta-rocket]

It takes TIME, and practice.

[union]

First off, a warm welcome to NESR.

Secondly, change your thinking!


Don't use the word "wrong"....look at it as "there's always room for improvement"....and there is.

"Wrong" does not allow for improvement. "Having goals" does.

There are a many things that allowed me to go faster.
Here are a few:
- Starting off on brand new tires
- Setting up the bike to my liking
- Hate to say it but, crashing
- Watching faster riders
- Constantly honing my body to motorcycle interaction (get loose on the bars!)


There are so many other factors as to why you have yet to hit your goals. One is fairly obvious...the fact that you are not comfortable on your machine. Not having the trust and comfort in your machine is probably your biggest hinderance right now, IMHO.

There are a ton of facts here. Just knowing your bike is in perfect race condition will make a huge difference. Good tires, not held together by zip ties and duct tape. Its just one thing less you have to worry about. Ive gone out on tires I wasnt a 100% sure about and while I was riding I was certain they were letting go. It wasnt the case but just having that little bug in your head was the difference in 2 seconds.

Crashing sucks but you will do it at some point. Dont be afraid of it. Ive crashed pretty hard a few times and each time Ive learned something. It took me a little bit to get my confidence in certain areas but now Im a better rider for it. You will figure out what you can and cant do.

Something that also helped me a lot was letting a better rider take my bike out while I watched. You might think youre on the edge of what your bike can do but when you see someone else exceed your edge then you will realize its not the bike holding you back. I picked up a few seconds after that.

[13]

Seriously, track time is key. Keep the thing upright and maybe come meet some of the other member racers. Maybe someone here could follow you around or scope you in some corners and give tips. The times will come.
..... at least that's what I'm told.....

[seth399]

coming from another new pavement racer...some of the best advice I have gotten is working on ONE single section of the track at a time. In addition to that, maybe take a few specific turns that you want to work on or link up differently and do that for a few laps then move onto a few other turns to work on and so on. I have found quickly that the offroad 'point and shoot' does NOT apply on the road course

[BLACK SQUIRREL]

This is what works for me.

First I like to visualize a lap. (remember what I am doing in slow motion) First off I look for times when I do not have the throttle wide Open or on the Brakes. Thats where my Missing seconds are. Going into The braking zones am I closing the thottle before I grab the brakes? Am I getting on the Gas to late Coming out of the turns? And the BIG one for Me is Over braking I tend to slow down to much going into some of the corners I can carry More corner speed But for some reason I dont. The reason I dont usally is I am not putting my eyes where they should be and tend to drop my vision in front of mr My wheel instead of up and far ahead through the corner.

I like to look at it this way. There are 12 Turns if I can Find where i am losing time in each corner I can bring the times down. a 1/2 Second gained in each corner puts you at 1:24 that makes you a fast novice.

[RyanNicholson]

Yea +1 on pretty much everything everyone else said. Consistency comes with knowing and using reference points, and getting faster comes with knowing how to change what you're doing at each reference point to increase speed (move this brake marker up, get on the gas before this marker instead of at it, etc).

Keep in mind you want to be either HARD on the gas, HARD on the binders, or HARD in a corner at all times... wherever you aren't is where you're losing time.

[Paul_E_D]

Here's my .02. To go faster you have to change your inputs. Most likely, charging harder/deeper into the corners will slow you more or cause you to crash.

Despite what peolpe are saying, you can get faster each weekend without crashing. (It will happen, I know). So what can you change that will make you faster without putting you in panic mode? Brake technique.

Use a brake marker that doesn't put you in a panic. Apply your usual braking force, and then let go of the brakes about 1 second earlier than you normally do. tip it in quick and go for it. The extra entry speed will naturally align with the earlier tip in. You won't panic, you'll carry more speed into, and through the corner, and if you can do this for 1,6,9,and 11, you'll see a nice drop in your times.

Once you get that working for you, you can use the same markers for on/off brakes, but only apply 75 percent of your normal braking pressure. This will make you smoother AND faster into the turns.

Get your corner speed up first, work on other things later.

Hope this helps.

[daviid]

what are you running for gearing? this can also make a big difference

[OreoGaborio]

Use the brakes less.

Seriously, it's just a matter of carrying more cornerspeed. Granted it's easier said than done, but it's the truth.

[DerekSBelanger]

I also ride a 1st gen SV and probably do about the same lap times as you. Here’s what I’ve noticed and will be working on the next time I’m at the track (Tuesday, May 26th with Tony’s – WooHoo!). I hope you find it helpful.

• Move all braking into the area after pre-turn approaching turn 1

• Turns 1, 1a, 2, 3 – I feel like I’m going fast approaching the corners, but once the bike is leaned over it doesn’t feel fast at all. My guess is that this happens because I don’t have grip confidence until the turn in transition is complete – which makes sense because at that point you get really good feedback about how things are griping. So, my plan here is to make sure I keep my eyes under control, stay on line, and just let it roll faster!

• Turn 6 – I’m completely lost. I’ve been shown and instructed on so many lines that I don’t know what to do anymore. Anyway, I’m more comfortable with the lines that use a wide entry to 6, so I’m going to experiment with that and try to find something that works for me. I also need a good braking marker for this turn. If I use the wide line like I plan to, maybe I’ll be close enough to the cones on the edge of the track to make use of them.

• Turn 10 exit – 11 entry. On this part of the track I’m faster than a lot of people with lap times similar to mine, fast enough to have fairly wide line exiting, in fact, probably 1/2 of the passes I make are on the outside of 10. Basically I try to copy this line in 10-11 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pl536tJzhZI Getting to the point, I don’t know what to do with my speed approaching 11 because I’m turning the whole time, so braking is scary. I need to figure out where and how much to brake and set some good markers.

• Square up 12 for better drive. I was doing this pretty good my first year, and somehow have gone backwards in this turn. Time to fix it again!

Last thing I’ll say is about something I learned last year. I rode a few sessions using only fourth and fifth gears and was able to keep up with the same people I was lapping with in previous sessions when I was using all the gears, driving and breaking hard. They would shoot away on the straights, but then brake so early that I could roll right back up behind them. I basically wasn’t trying at all, but was going just as fast time-wise. This means so many things I don’t think I understand or can explain them all, but I will say this – at our level learning how to go faster means learning how not to waste time.

[nt650hawk]

I know that bike anywhere.

Welcome to the NESR Club.

I'll be seeing you next week.







Seat time, Seat time, Seat time + have a conscious awareness of what you and the bike are doing. A number of people just "ride around". They don't get that feeling for what is happening. Only you or with some assistance from others have to recognize what is going on. Constantly analyze the situation. Reference points will be you friend.

[Jonny Rocket]

One of the best things I learned was to always be doing something, you should either be on the brakes or on the gas. Don't ever coast into a brake zone. Use the front brakes/throttle as one control input.

Also, try to apply the techniques you learned from Code school, just do them more rapidly.

[Kurlon]

Notebook, notes. Come in off the track, write down what you thought, even if you think it's silly. Before you get fully wound up for practice, note the weather, forecast, etc, and your starting pressures. At first it's a whole ton of random chatter, after awhile you can start seeing patterns, and finding things to improve on, etc.

[GixerJockey]

One of the best things I learned was to always be doing something, you should either be on the brakes or on the gas. Don't ever coast into a brake zone. Use the front brakes/throttle as one control input.

Trust! This exact advise, from this exact person, was good for almost a 2 second gain last race weekend.


Combining that with what Paul just typed, should be good for some more time this weekend!!!


I LOVE THIS SHIT!!!

[BMFR6]

Trust! This exact advise, from this exact person, was good for almost a 2 second gain last race weekend.


Combining that with what Paul just typed, should be good for some more time this weekend!!!


I LOVE THIS SHIT!!!

LOL. I actually wrote "Always be doing something!" with a sharpie on my gas tank when I started racing and of course the credit goes to Jon.

[a13x]

Despite what peolpe are saying, you can get faster each weekend without crashing. (It will happen, I know). .

+1

I can't stand the mindset "You have to crash to find the limits". I never crashed once my Rookie year and smoked it.


Be smart, observant, and constantly apply thought to your riding and times will drop.

[Pittenger5]

Anyone know where I can get a motorcross crash pad thing made up that has "twist the throttle you pussy" printed on it?

[Sheppo]

Anyone know where I can get a motorcross crash pad thing made up that has "twist the throttle you pussy" printed on it?

when you pick up your chain I'll hand you one

[Honclfibr]

As your attorney I advise you to rent a very fast bike with no bodywork. And you'll need the cocaine.

[DerekSBelanger]

Notebook

Wow - I should have been doing this all along! Thanks for the tip!

[-jro-]

Hi bdawkins with all the track days you've done I'm sure you've done some track walks, but if you get the chance do it again. And bring a notebook! All the track walks I've been on I was the only one scribbling notes like a maniac, but its well worth the effort. I can go back and over look these, review braking points, possible shift points, and really get a good look at the track from a stand still. Also, make sure to do the walk with a well seasoned rider, write down their commentary. I was fortunate to do my walk with Carl McAllister and he is a wealth of information. One thing I wish I had thought to do on my track walks is bring a camera, snap some shots of the track for visual reference.