LRRS Rulebook questions

[jasnmar]

I've tried a number of times to put together a list of questions. I keep writing a rambling nonsensical mess. New approach. Don't try to learn everything at once, just start with something simple.

From the 2013 Rulebook:

19.8 Oil filler caps and inspection covers must be secured with safety wire. Any other caps, plugs and fittings on any system containing a fluid must be secured. This includes fuel hoses and water hoses.

Breaking this down.
Oil filler caps must be secured with safety wire.
Inspection covers must be secured with safety wire.
Any other cap on any system containing a fluid must be secured.
Any other plug on any system containing a fluid must be secured.
Any other fitting on any system containing a fluid must be secured.
#This# includes fuel hoses.
#This# includes water hoses.

Question 1: Does secured as used above mean safety wired? Are there methods meeting the "secured" requirement other than safety wiring and if so what?

Question 2: As used above the term #this# could apply to the requirement of safety wiring, or it could apply to the requirement for securing, if there is even any difference in these requirements.

Question 3: Is the intent of the part about fuel and water hoses about keeping the hose with the bike, or is the intent about keeping the fluids within the system? There are a number of different mechanisms currently holding various hoses on their fittings on my bike right now. I question whether many of these fasteners are remotely legal, even after possibly securing them.

There's more of course, but this is a start.

[union]

Im pretty sure the hose clamps will be fine.

[Awesome]

Any other caps, plugs and fittings on any system containing a fluid must be secured. This means something has to secure them.

[union]

Any other caps, plugs and fittings on any system containing a fluid must be secured. This means something has to secure them.

Right with wire or some silicone if it cant be drilled. At least its what Ive always done and passed tech

[Awesome]

Right with wire or some silicone if it cant be drilled. At least its what Ive always done and passed tech

Something. Hoses need to be held on with a clamp, fuel lines with that little metal crimp. Don't over think it, most of it is what comes on the bike stock.

[Slowpoke387]

If they want safety wire they will generally specify safety wire. Otherwise secure means something rather than stock. What they said

[Chippertheripper]

Hose clamps without gobs of silicone covering the mechanism will pass, I can see the next question...

[Slowpoke387]

wait for it....

[butcher bergs]

Jason, if you want some help, let me know. I'm just up the road in Epsom.

[MarkMarine]

I put a loop of wire from the back of the hose clamp through the screw driver slot so it can't turn. I've never seen a hose clamp back off, and it probably isn't needed for tech but it's a small bit of peace of mind.

[jasnmar]

So. We seem to agree that secure isn't the same as safety wire. (Stupid question that I don't expect an answer to is why is this part of the same rule if both the intent and execution are different?)
Fair enough... question 1 answered. There seems to be some disagreement in what secure actually means (and yes, I think I am over thinking this, I do that).

Question 2, based on the replies seems to be that #this# references secured, rather than safety wired so water and fuel hoses need to be only secured.

Awesome, at one point, made an interesting distinction, intentional or not. (Intentionally paraphrasing) Hoses need hose clamps. Fuel lines need clips. There's no mention of air / vacuum lines.

My bike, in it's mostly factory state, mostly uses clamps for water lines, and mostly uses clips for fuel / air lines (there are exceptions to this where clips are used for water and clamps are used for air and fuel, just to confuse the issue). I've been tending to replace most fuel line clips with clamps as I go through stuff. I have specifically left a few clips on some of the water connections. There are a couple places where putting clamps on these are going to make things an incredible pain in the ass to maintain (the ones that come to mind right now are the water connections on the bases of the carburetors, which need to be removed "as" the carbs are being lifted off the manifold).

There are some indications that this factory level of securing is adequate. Others indicate otherwise. Now, if factory "secure" is a clip and I replace that with a clamp, is that likely adequately secure?

To securing hose clamps. Thanks Mark! That makes sense and is much better than most of the images I've seen on safety wiring hose clamps. Most of them have been mostly stupid. Now, about that silicone thing ... are we talking about putting something like RTV in the mechanism that tightens the band? (Not in racing, but) I've also seen things like double clamps in critical locations. Is this ever necessary / recommended?

Question 3 also seems answered. It's about securing the fluid... I think.

Is there anything necessary for securing clips? Is there anything necessary for additionally securing connections with clips?
Is there anything necessary for securing all of the air / vacuum connections at all? I think I may have taken too literal a definition of fluid. For me, fluid includes air. Is liquid a better term in the rule?

Did I misunderstand anything?

Hose clamps without gobs of silicone covering the mechanism will pass, I can see the next question...

wait for it....

Please. Enlighten me?

Paul - I do appreciate the offer. I'm not actually in "race prep" mode. I did a bit of a tear down, a bit of a reassembly, figured out I missed something (besides the fact that I was being a dumbass with routing the throttle cables) so tore down again, and have now discovered a possible oil leak (front left, 1 or 2, not sure if it is valve cover gasket or head gasket) , so am just trying to get some clarifications on what I should try to address "while I'm in there" .

[Chippertheripper]

I don't think you missed anything, but you asked the question anyway.
No, you don't have to fill a hose clamp mechanism with rtv, or any other silicone.
Nor do you need to safety wire vacuum lines.

I've always taken secure to mean: not falling off the bike.

Do: safety wire oil fill, drain and filter. Also: radiator caps.
Do also use catch cans for overflow lines and breathers, if its not routed into your intake.
Let tech tell you what you've missed, if anything. That's their job.

[CBR929RE]

yes fluid means liquid. you want to make sure any hoses/lines with liquid in them stay connected to where they should be because you don't want any fluid coming out in a crash. LRRS actually doesn't want you to drill brake line banjo bolts but I think Wera requires them to be wired.

air/vacuum lines should be attached properly because typically if they come off then the bike will run crappy or possibly not even run at all.

[MarkMarine]

I think there is a blurry line in this tread between tech being for safety/meets class rules vs. tech being there to tell you if your bike is done "right."
I haven't been doing this forever, but I interpret tech as being there to check that your bike isn't going to fall apart mid race, oil the track, and comply with the race classes you've entered.
Not to check if you did basic maintenance right, like securing vacuum lines (which will only make your bike slow, not really a hazard)

Fluid I read as anything slippery that would break traction if spilled on the track. Secure I read as tight to the point that you are sure it won't come loose, but keep in mind the rule book is interpreted by the inspectors tech'ing your bike, and if they disagree with your definition of "sure it won't come loose" then you'll have to fix it.
I went too far when I did my first bike. I safety wired every port, opening, and plug on the engine. Took too long and the experienced racers told me I was waisting my time.
Now I do everything that I've heard a story about it coming loose, like exhaust, oil filter, caliper bolts, axle... Etc. I also torque them every time I put them on (worked in aviation, I torque everything by default) and I think that's the more valuable thing.

[jasnmar]

I think there's a bit of a blurry line in the rule book about what meets rules vs. what's done "right". For example...

A GOOD RULE OF THUMB * SAFETY WIRE ANYTHING YOU WOULD NOT WANT TO COME LOOSE AT SPEED.

I don't want my gloves coming off at speed, but I probably shouldn't safety wire them on .

Since you mention catch cans, that's another area that I've been confused on...

19.12 On 4 stroke machines all vent, breather or overflow tubes coming from the engine, transmission or radiator must be routed into a heat resistant catch can of at least 350cc capacity or the air box.

This rules gives 9 "possible" things that need to be routed "somewhere" (more on that in a minute).
engine vent - I "think" this is handled via the stock Air Injection Control valve?
transmission vent - I can't tell that I have anything of this sort, but I don't actually know.
radiator vent - I'll call the radiator vent the same as the overflow, covered below.

engine breather - Calling this the same as the engine vent. Handled via Air Injection Control, I think.
transmission breather - No clue?
radiator breather - Overflow. See below.

engine overflow - No such thing, I think?
transmission overflow - Don't think so?
radiator overflow - Yes. Definitely one of these. The overflow is currently routed to the overflow tank. Is this enough, or is more required?

Now, the catch can. It needs to be heat resistant, but how heat resistant? My overflow tank is some sort of plastic. I don't know what sort. Is it heat resistant enough? If plastic is heat resistant enough, what the hell did someone use to get them to add the words heat resistant to the rule? Ice? If plastic isn't heat resistant enough (which it may not be) then won't I have the same problem with putting stuff in the air box, which is also made of plastic (I'm pretty sure that's ABS).

I also assume that this catch can is different than the catch can that is discussed in rule 19.25 (which I have a ton of other questions on, but I want to understand if it is the same or different first).

I have questions about the requirements of 19.13.1 as well, but let's start with this.

[Chippertheripper]

Your stock radiator overflow should suffice.

As I already hinted at, your engine, or crankcase breather may be vented into your intake. That a stock emissions type thing. If it isn't, or you don't want your motor to burn oil mist unnecessarily, put it in a catch can. You can buy them, or make one. I had one made out of a small nalgene that was fine, as well as one made out of a modified air compressor separator.
Use your imagination. And don't get so hung up on these minute details. You've been to a few td's, I gather, so I'll bet you have a decent understanding of what's right, and what's a flagrant disregard of the spirit of the rules.

Have Paul over for a frosty beverage, and have him look it over.

[nhbubba]

Have Paul over for a frosty beverage, and have him look it over.

And invite me. I'll contribute next to nothing of value.. but I'll promise to bring frosty beverages.

[butcher bergs]

WERA does not require banjo bolts to be wired.


Jason - My offer continues to stand. Make it easy on yourself, eh?

[Kurlon]

Heat resistant - If you've got a catch bottle setup so it's likely to get pressed against the exhaust or some other hot surface, make damn well sure it'll survive the experience and not develop a leak and drop it's contents everywhere. People used to love to use empty beverage containers, some of them will melt just from being NEAR the engine cases, hence the rule.

[CBR929RE]

Heat resistant - If you've got a catch bottle setup so it's likely to get pressed against the exhaust or some other hot surface, make damn well sure it'll survive the experience and not develop a leak and drop it's contents everywhere. People used to love to use empty beverage containers, some of them will melt just from being NEAR the engine cases, hence the rule.

the stock coolant overflow bottle on my bike was touching the new exhaust I put on this winter. I had to bend the brackets just to get it off and I wasn't comfortable with how it was sitting afterward and heard stories of the little nipple on the bottom breaking so I bought an HRC bottle which is just a little plastic bottle and mounted it to the ram air tube.

Jason all that stuff being routed to a catch can talk is pretty much taken care of from at the factory. and the ones that aren't, like the tank overflow which runs to the bottom of the bike use the closed belly pan required to race as a catch can.

[Jim]

assuming you're on an Inline-4, here's what you'll need to safety wire.

front and rear axle bolts
front axle pinch bolts
front and rear caliper bolts
radiator filler cap
water pump drain plug
oil filler cap
oil drain bolt
oil filter
outter tubes of your headers
exhaust hanger

brake pad pins aren't required, but appreciated when tech sees them.
DO NOT drill your (brake line or master cylinder) banjo bolts for safety wiring.