Braking/cornering Q.

[OreoGaborio]

Something I saw Aaron Clark post up over on Clubracer.net puzzled me...

Basically what he said is instead of moving your brake marker further forward, deeper into the corner, you move your "release brakes" marker further back and roll through the corner to your acceleration point with more speed... He used turns 1, 3 and 6 as his main examples of where you can gain the most by doing this.

I was talkin to Alex Dunstan bout that last night over a beer & we can kinda see why, but I was hoping someone could shed some light on that.

Is it cuz you get to the point where you can't start your braking any deeper?

I was under the impression that if at all possible, at the very top level of racing it's best to start braking as late as possible & trail it in as close to the apex as possible where you're getting on the gas... basically keep the transition phase where you're off the brakes but not on the gas yet to a minimum.

Paul? Tony? Degs? Anyone? thoughts?

[Awesome]

If you're moving your "release brake" point back are you turning in sooner? Do you release the brake then start braking again to trail brake through the corner? If you' have the traction available to you to use more brake then you should be using it and carrying it throught the corner to the apex, which means you should be breaking deeper and carrying more speed.if you try to brake at the same starting point and let off early the person carrying more speed to his turn in point it going to stuff you and leave you on the brakes longer than you need to be, and waiting for them to turn in so you can next. Read your famous signature quote and reflect on maximizing your traction through braking, accelerating and cornering. If you're not pushing the traction limits than your wasting available grip and therefore wasting time.

[OreoGaborio]

Yeah, all the questions you just brought up are exactly why his statment puzzled me me. Is there something different about turns 1, 3 & 6, something about there being a "point of no return" when it comes to braking that Clarkie's talkin about?

If you take a magnifying glass to it and compare starting braking later & keeping everything else the same (release points, turn-in etc) to stopping your braking SOONER & keeping everything else the same (on the binders, turn-in etc), at one end you're doing more MPH over a certain distance than the other....

For example, you go into a braking zone at 130, hit the brakes at the 3 marker & stop braking at say, 80mph @ point X... Clarkie's saying start braking at 3 & stop braking 10 feet before point X at 81mph & carry that speed.

That's all good & dandy that you're now carrying 81mph through the corner, that's a positive difference, but if you can carry 81mph through the corner, why not shift that 10 foot section to the start of your braking zone & cover that same 10 foot area doing 130mph rather than 81?

Now I know there's some bumps coming into three & i've heard some people tap the brakes before the bumps to settle the front, release, then get on again afterwards, maybe that's kind of a turn where there maybe a 'point of no return' & it's better to stop braking earlier rather than start braking later?

As much as i'd like to disgard this theory all together, Clarkie's not exactly a slouch on the track.

[Awesome]

You're still braking when you turn the bike in, so you don't carry the speed that you have when you 'release' Also if you let off before your turn in your letting the front susp. extend and making your bike turn in slower. If you start turning in earlier than you were this means you're turning in slower to get to the same apex and the same line and wasting more time. The optimal number of turn in inputs is one. Bang it over once committed to the turn and you're going to be smoother and more steady. If you're adjusting your line or waiting to see if you're near the apex to commit to the corner you're burning tuns of time. BALLS not brains.

[OreoGaborio]

my guess is that Clarkie was inferring that we are already trail braking & not braking straight up & down, releasing, then turning in.

[legalspeed]

I did not read everything, but it is exactly what I was trying to explain to Naz last year...

If you are experimenting with corner speed, braking later is going to hurt you. Instead, keep your marker where it is; but let go of your braking sooner, then you have time to react or correct before blowing the corner. In this relaxed state, increase speed a little and roll through faster. Once you have increased your roll-through speed, and are comfortable with the new velocity, then push your braking marker back to take up the slack and start to trail into the corner again.

It's a learning technique, to develop your corner speed experience, not something to do as regular practice durring a race.

You can learn by simply moving the braking marker back more and more, but things happen so fast you may wind up on the ground looking at your bike thinking "We used to be together..."

[OreoGaborio]

ahhh... interesting point Dan you just put into words something i've actually tried but never thought about. I was thinking of thise whole thing in a racing context like Clarkie put it... Still doesn't make sense in that context, but in a practice situation like you put it I can see how it's valuable.

[OreoGaborio]

here's another interesting post I read recently.

Originally posted by Stuman from Clubracer.net

I think that if you are trail braking you can not turn the bike as quickly as you could if you were done braking when you turned. When you trail brake you put a lot of load on the front, turning quickly adds additional load and it could be too much. It is a very delicate balance, you want to turn the bike quick enough to get to the apex, but you have to be very careful if you are on the front brake. You have to develop good judgment to know how quickly you can turn and how much front brake you can use at the same time without loosing the front. You can use a lot of front brake if you turn it real slow, you can turn it real quick if you don’t use much brake, but if you get that combo wrong, well you know what happens and have probably seen it a hundred times.

I’ve never bottomed the suspension when turning a bike quickly while not on the brakes. You can turn a bike very quickly if you’re not on the brakes and it will not bottom out the forks. I suppose it is true that the quicker you turn the more load you place on the front and the further the forks will travel towards the bottom of the stroke. I just think you would really have to punch the bar pretty hard to get the forks to bottom (or maybe have like real soft springs and no compression damping) by turning the bike real quick. Now when you are on the brakes the forks are already compressed some so turning it super quick while on the brakes could cause the front to bottom and I have had this happen before. One very cool concept here is the technique of releasing the brakes while turning the bike to keep the suspension in the same spot. You can turn very quickly and release the brake just as quickly and replace one load for another. This is not trail braking because you are done braking when you are done turning and it can happen very quickly. Trail braking is trailing off the brakes into a corner after the bike has been turned.

It’s my opinion that you won’t gain much by trying to trail the brakes into turn one at big Willow. I like to get most of my braking done while strait up and down for turn one so I can turn quickly and get back on the gas. Turn three is another story…

All I know for certain is that I can't wait to get the funk out there & just RIDE

[Paul_E_D]

The first topic of when to relaease the brakes is a good one to explore. That second one is a mess and not easy to comment on.

Pete, the latest possible braking point is not ALWAYS the best in a racing situation. It's a defensive move that could actually hurt your laptimes because you'll be trailbraking so much that little mistakes will creep in, a push here, a wide line there, late on the gas etc. etc.

Dan has some good input above... Here's mine:
Releasing the brake a little earlier achieves a higher entry speed, higher mid corner speed, and often, because you more relaxed and not having the troubles mentioned above, an earlier throttle opening. Whatever the case, it's important to have a marker for releasing the brake. There's nothing slower than a bike on the brakes!

Many guys brake late, but I can pass them at the exit because I let off the brakes sooner, and got on the gas sooner.

[OreoGaborio]

Originally posted by Paul_E_D
That second one is a mess and not easy to comment on.

heh, yeah, you're tellin me, i had a tough time tryin to figure it all out myself

Thanks for the input Paul, that makes sense.

[x2468]

[a13x]

Pete I was working on my bike tonight and was talking about this with Matt Stone. When I read him Clarkie's post he was like 'Yea exactly'. heh.

It's sort of like I was thinking last night. Once you are a bit more cemented in your brake markers, it makes sense. For new guys and stuff it doesn't seem to make as much.

I got it now

[Awesome]

I can't say I agree with too much of that quote you got there pete. Watch any GP race when they have the camera right on the brake hand, and you'll see how long and deep they brake into the corner. The bike turns in fasterwith the suspension compressed. Good old Peter @ GMD taught me this and it got me past my wall on laptimes and they've been dropping seconds since. It's all rake, trail and some kinda quadratic derrivative but it can only be calculated by using the input vs load impedence, so you're gonna need a smith chart after you calculate the tayler series expansion, of course that leaves you with an order of convergence at such a rate that it'll make obvious the existance and uniqueness.

What?

Trail braking works. Being afraid of overloading the front doing it is no reason not to.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying wait till the last second to get on the brakes. If you do you'll just trigger Kieth Code's good all survival reflex. The point I'm making is if you're pussying off the brakes earlier it means you're wasting available traction. In general if you have extra available traction you have the means to be going faster or braking harder. I'm too hungover for this, just go faster than the other guy.


BALLS.

[s a x m a n]

"just go faster than the other guy"

brillant!

hahaahha

[Honclfibr]

Originally posted by s a x m a n
"just go faster than the other guy"

brillant!

hahaahha

Or, as an alternate strategy, just follow behind them and wait for them to crash. Then run over their heads.

[Awesome]

Originally posted by Honclfibr
Or, as an alternate strategy, just follow behind them and wait for them to crash. Then run over their heads.

You must ride motards. Those things are ALWAYS behind me.

[Ken C]

Excellent comments.

Here's my take:
As a novice, you'll need to focus on consistencey, which means not scaring youself by braking scary-late. For a while, you can work on delaying your brake marker, but after you get fast, the brake marker pretty much stays put, but the "brake-off" marker becomes earlier.

I began doing this into turn 1.3 1 and 6 as well and I noticed big gains. And as Paul says, you must have a specific brake-off marker, which is as important as a brake-on marker. Be prepared for the "oh shi*" factor when releasing the brakes just like when we brake later.

One other thing to consider is that Clarke races a 1000 Aprilia, which demands a bit different approach than a EX. With the EX you want corner speed, so get off the brakes!

[OreoGaborio]

.... interesting... Ken, you gonna be at VIR? I'm really interested in this theory cuz it goes against everything I previously knew.

[a13x]

Originally posted by Ken C
For a while, you can work on delaying your brake marker, but after you get fast, the brake marker pretty much stays put, but the "brake-off" marker becomes earlier.

Nice. That's pretty much what I deducted after hashing it around. Perfectly in-line with Clarkie's comment and Stone agreed.

Thanks

[Kip]

The problem with all this is everyone has there own thing going on in there head. If I say I brake between the 3 and 4 board going into turn 1 and then someone else tells me "so do I" but you go so much fasten then I do into turn 1 why? So I followed the guy around in practice for a few laps and I find out his brake marker is before the 4 board but he thinks he is braking later then he is.
One thing I have always thought is we all have a comfort speed that we go by in the corners. You can brake later and harder but your comfort speed will stay the same as if you were to brake earlier and softer. The more track time you get your comfort speed should pick up and you can then practice what works best for you. With that being said the bike does turns in easier when you are trail braking.

[Ken C]

Originally posted by Kip
You can brake later and harder but your comfort speed will stay the same as if you were to brake earlier and softer.

I Agree with Kip. And there's no benefit in scaring yourself, it'll only set you back.

Another example is horsepower. It's easy to think you will automatically go faster with more HP, but the internal comfort guage will still hold you back until you can reset it to accept the faster speed.

Pete, I'll be at VIR with Tony. It'll be fun to hook up.

[Paul_E_D]

Hessogood, Last I checked you're not on a GP bike, so don't watch those guys too closely. If I were you, I'd keep an open mind here. Clarkie is one of the best riders at Loudon. I'm often in the top ten (or 5) for ALL practice times on my 125, Ken's a great rider, and Kip has shown to be quick as well. There's a lot of experience chiming in here. It can't be all wrong.

[Hardcore]

Originally posted by Honclfibr
Or, as an alternate strategy, just follow behind them and wait for them to crash. Then run over their heads.

MOTARDS SUCK!!! + FUCK YOU BITCH!!!

[Hardcore]

Originally posted by Paul_E_D
There's a lot of experience chiming in here. It can't be all wrong.

definately some good points but I believe the brake-off points are much more important on the smaller bikes than the 600+750's, do to the instant-on power they have as soon as you touch the throttle!

[SVRACER01]

Originally posted by Ken C

Pete, I'll be at VIR with Tony. It'll be fun to hook up.

whoa whoa... whats going on here? a little love triangle rendevous