The Ptwins thread.

[Doc]

From the NEAR list...

"Eric Wood put it well at the annual meeting: LRRS wants to be an inclusive, customer-oriented oriented, and (most importantly) flexible organization.

I don't know of anyone that has any objections to anyone racing a stock Hawk with us. About 3-4 years ago we allowed one in for a few races on a nod-&-a-wink basis, and it could of course happen that way again.

The reduction a while back to 500cc's was to keep the Aprilia 550 out. The rule book is being finalized again, and we could make an exemption for Hawks, much like anyone who showed up with an 883 Harley would pretty much be allowed to race wherever they wanted to. ;-)

So I've broadened this email, and am asking for ANYONE with objections to a Hawk that meets the existing PTwins rules,* to email me and let me know. I'll present any objections, and the committee will vote on it soon.

B.J.
(*That means stock rims, exhaust, intake except for jetting, etc. And of course, no internal engine mods.)"

[butcher bergs]

I know I have no place in this thread but I'm not sure what the fuss is about...? If you're on a slower bike then wouldn't it be prudent to learn how to ride faster or find a better setup?

Let's learn something together.

[Pittenger5]

I know I have no place in this thread but I'm not sure what the fuss is about...? If you're on a slower bike then wouldn't it be prudent to learn how to ride faster or find a better setup?

Let's learn something together.

Thats the whole point of PTwins. Its all rider since bikes are similar. Theres no BS, you dont hafta drop a fortune on the bike to be competitive. My bike cost 900 bucks to buy, I added some rearsets (not necessary) and some suspension, that was it, along with the usual tires. Its a low cost entry into racing. I can say with 100% certainty without PTwins I wouldnt be racing. They're bringing discussion of other bikes so that we can keep it low cost and competitive. If we allow a bike that will dominate, especially something as unique as a hawk, the low cost entry level leaves. It'd be tough to find a bike and parts are cheaply and plentiful as the EX.

[Kurlon]

If we allow a bike that will dominate, especially something as unique as a hawk, the low cost entry level leaves. It'd be tough to find a bike and parts are cheaply and plentiful as the EX.

I don't see how a Hawk, which is down on power in stock trim compared to a matching state EX is going to dominate? It's got cornering clearance on the EX, but so does my GS? Tomato couldn't outrun my GS on his stock Hawk (I think he had an exhaust actually), and EX's pull on me bad.

[Pittenger5]

I don't see how a Hawk, which is down on power in stock trim compared to a matching state EX is going to dominate? It's got cornering clearance on the EX, but so does my GS? Tomato couldn't outrun my GS on his stock Hawk (I think he had an exhaust actually), and EX's pull on me bad.

I shouldve been more clear, if we found a bike that could dominate, but parts and bike weren't as plentiful as the EXs are. The Hawk isnt a COMMON bike, and parts arent as plentiful as an EXs. I'm for a stock hawk mainly so I can race good ol Doc again. In fact, I'm in favor for as many bikes as we can allow that keeps the same competition and spirit.

[butcher bergs]

There may be an issue with a stock Hawk that finishes 10 or 12 seconds ahead of the pack.....that's why we have protests, no? Find the remaining front runners and have a pow-wow.

Yes, if there are 7 Hawks entered into a race and all 7 Hawks place 1-7 there's an issue. What are the chances though?

[Pittenger5]

There may be an issue with a stock Hawk that finishes 10 or 12 seconds ahead of the pack.....that's why we have protests, no? Find the remaining front runners and have a pow-wow.

Yes, if there are 7 Hawks entered into a race and all 7 Hawks place 1-7 there's an issue. What are the chances though?

The discussion is whether to allow stock hawks legally into PTwins, which then wouldnt be protestable. If we decide to allow them, and they dominate, either they get booted and we go back to the way we are, or PTwins changes drastically. There's also discussion to allow stock hawks on a wink wink basis to see how things go before deciding to allow them legally.

[R7]

The reduction a while back to 500cc's was to keep the Aprilia 550 out.

So could one race an Aprilia SXV 450 in Ptwins?

[Doc]

The wink, wink would work fine. I'd be happy to just run on a trial basis, no points and no trophys. If I am walking away with it I will come in on the 7th lap and you won't hear from another Hawker again.

The way I see it is that by having another bike in the Ptwins arena it helps to secure Ptwins in the future. Loudon is the ONLY track with Ptwins. It is a great spec class and I love the idea of keeping costs down.

Contrary to some opinions I can get a stock Hawk for under $1000. I have parts from my built Hawk that will keep the costs low. I think for the sake of argument we can stop the "Ex500's are cheaper debate".

Now as far as the "same competition and spirit" I think a stock Hawk fits the bill (for some). I think you will find they are very close competative wise and as I have stated a stock Hawk would not be expensive for me to run in PTwins. (Plus I would have a back up motor and parts for my Built Hawk)

Then I can put a whippin a dolla on "equal" ground.

[Pittenger5]

Then I can put a whippin a dolla on "equal" ground.

I voted to allow you. Bitch.

[butcher bergs]

The discussion is whether to allow stock hawks legally into PTwins, which then wouldnt be protestable.

Why's that? If a supposedly "stock" Hawk absolutely crushed all, that's not considered protestable?

There's also discussion to allow stock hawks on a wink wink basis to see how things go before deciding to allow them legally.

That makes more sense doing it that way. Wonder if they'd allow points or consider it "testing"...

[Doc]

How aboout 1 year on a probationary trial basis.

[Pittenger5]

Why's that? If a supposedly "stock" Hawk absolutely crushed all, that's not considered protestable?


That makes more sense doing it that way. Wonder if they'd allow points or consider it "testing"...

If its not stock, then yes, its protestable, same as a non-stock EX. They'd allow points unless its blatently obvious, then I'm sure they'd be removed from wink wink status and banned very quickly. Its not like we expect 100 hawks to come out, 1 or 2 is likely.

[Honclfibr]

I don't think a stock hawk is down on power compared to a stock EX. And I think it has a better frame. But I don't really know much about hawks.

[Honclfibr]

So could one race an Aprilia SXV 450 in Ptwins?

Micky Cury ran one in EX PTWN. Noone protested him. But I think that has to do more with the fact that it's Micky Curry. I believe he mentioned something about ditching the SXV and picking up another EX for next year.

FWIW I do believe the SXV meets the letter of the rules for PTWN, if not necessarily the spirit.

[butcher bergs]

How aboout 1 year on a probationary trial basis.

That could piss people off if there was complete domination.

Perhaps do it on a certain number of Hawk entries so IF there was domination, it could be seen in a shorter amount of time rather than being spanked all year long.

[Honclfibr]

Personally, I'm having serious thoughts about swapping the EX for another bike next year. Brake pads shouldn't be allowed to fall out. Ever. Especially on the track. I'm not sure I can move past that one.

[pasta-rocket]

I say great, come on in. I am all for it....even if you win every race!

[Pittenger5]

Personally, I'm having serious thoughts about swapping the EX for another bike next year. Brake pads shouldn't be allowed to fall out. Ever. Especially on the track. I'm not sure I can move past that one.

My new bikes are safety wired in about 37 times.

[Awesome]

So if you just want to get more track time and you're going to spend the same money on a completely equal bike, that you claim won't be any advantage, why don't you just buy and race an EX which is already legal in the rules, and absolutely equal without question and doesn't require a rule change.

[Doc]

Personally, I'm having serious thoughts about swapping the EX for another bike next year. Brake pads shouldn't be allowed to fall out. Ever. Especially on the track. I'm not sure I can move past that one.

I can get you one too...

Or I bet a Duc 620 would be nice.

[Doc]

So if you just want to get more track time and you're going to spend the same money on a completely equal bike, that you claim won't be any advantage, why don't you just buy and race an EX which is already legal in the rules, and absolutely equal without question and doesn't require a rule change.

Because my main bike is a Hawk. This Ptwins Hawk would be a nice "parts bike". Make sense?

I am all for doing this "right" and making sure a stock Hawk will only be competative and not dominate.

[Awesome]

And last year it was a ducati that would be perfect for you and what you stirred the production twins pot with.

[TheIglu]

I don't really understand the benefit of allowing a 20 year old bike that hasn't been produced for a LONG time into the class.

If a new bike came out that is inexpensive, readily available and with similar track time ability (power is nothing if it handles like crap, handling is nothing if it has 10hp) to current PTwins bikes, then why not allow it?

But a rare bike being allowed on a case by case basis?

Then again, if it's competitive in stock form and fairly equal to the current lineup, I'd say let it in.

Aprilia SVX 4.5 could ruin our class. I can't say I'd stop racing, but if 5 people decided to run them, I'm pretty sure a lot of people would either stop racing or jump the PTwins ship for good, especially in the upper ranks. That would be like allowing MotoGP bikes into the Heavyweight class because the engine size is the same.

To sum it up, I'm torn. I think a Hawk would be OK if it truely is close. I also think PTwins is the closest thing we have to stock racing and I'd like to keep it that way. I don't place racing finances ahead of everything else in life unlike quite a few people at Louden and if it became a "spend the $$$ or stop" decision, I'd hang it up and have no regrets. I'm probably the cheapest racer on NESR but still enjoy it.

[Doc]

And last year it was a ducati that would be perfect for you and what you stirred the production twins pot with.

If you remember I was running a Duc then. Same deal, 2 of the "same" bikes is a whole lot better than 2 completly different bikes.

...and ohh look... Ducati 620's in Ptwins! Wow!