NHMS Turn by Turn Journal

[a13x]

I took notes on my riding but it was really short bullet points

- tried turning in early in Turn X, seemed to work better, will work on more next practice.
- Bump in Turn X causing issues, finding going to the inside is better
- Gearing too short, went up +1, laptimes better

etc.

Funny to read my notes from 2005

[RyanNicholson]

I see what you're saying about getting into a rhythm... but the only reason you can get into a rhythm and click off consistent fast laps is because at some point you developed all of your reference points and have now made them second nature... eh?

thats pretty much exactly what I mean from my experience on the track, its good to find a balance between having specific points, thoughts, and strategies to think about....and "feeling/rhythm". Its pretty easy to over analyze.

Point taken about T1a... I've always thought that the very late apex line might be fast but would always leave the door open in a competitive environment. It seems people have a lot of differing opinions about 2, a lot of folks I've heard saying to late apex the shit out of it to get most of your turning done and to be starting to stand the bike up right at the apex... you're saying someone pretty different though.

You're right, there are a number of ways to do it, but swinging really wide to the right side of the track after T1a isn't something any of the fast guys I've been out there with do. Since there is a significant amount of turning to do after the apex, that even with a later apex you can't really do much about...it seems like you're just giving up a bit for very little gain. But, like many of said here already, lines do change depending on rider/bike/etc.

Its one of the very deceiving, strange, odd corners at NHMS that aren't all that common elsewhere. Like T1....the preturn doesn't initially seem like it would be the fastest way around it....but it is.

Can you elaborate a bit about what you mean by the opposite of countersteering? Are you saying as you drive out of a corner you're pulling the inside handlebar towards you?

yea, basically...like i said i wouldn't really want to pull hard, but a little pressure on the bars to help stand the bike up can help you get on the gas harder, sooner.

[The Crashing Tomato]

C O N --- F I D --- E N C E :: F E A R

Better Laps/ Faster lap times :: C R A S H I N G

you'll get there man just practice what works for you ..... with a fast guy tip here or there

[TTD]

NOTE: Didn't read all the posts, but...


I believe the fastest way through Turn 2 may not be the safest.

We try to get people to hold Turn 1A a little longer...thus getting more of your turning done down on the flat... before starting up the Oval. This way, if you tuck the front you'll probably not even reach the airfence.

Also, if you do highside, since you're pointing much more toward Turn 3, you'll likely not flip over into the fence.

And since you don't have any inside passes allowed in 2, you don't have to worry about that.

I think (been outta the racing scene for a while, so maybe not?) the new fast way is to almost straight shoot turn 1A and deal with Turn 2 up on the oval a lot more. I've tried it and it does seem faster... but I am also doing a lot more turning near the airfence.

[Doc]

There is a line I was shown where you late apex 2 and dive under the usual line of drifting out to the wall. IF you get a good drive you can beat someone to the chute in 3.

[Pittenger5]

There is a line I was shown where you late apex 2 and dive under the usual line of drifting out to the wall. IF you get a good drive you can beat someone to the chute in 3.

That was my pass in Novice. I got so many people that way, but it doesnt seem to work so well as an AM

[CEO]

Interesting info about 2... guess your line really depends on the situation... track day vs. someone on your tail vs. trying to pass someone, etc...

I took notes on my riding but it was really short bullet points

- tried turning in early in Turn X, seemed to work better, will work on more next practice.
- Bump in Turn X causing issues, finding going to the inside is better
- Gearing too short, went up +1, laptimes better

etc.

Funny to read my notes from 2005

That's sensible for someone who's already got a lot of their riding skills sorted out. I sometimes do short notes like that between sessions... it's after a day or two of sessions that I look at the entire track and everything I'm doing on it.

Or maybe this is all just to help me pass the time between track days?

Its pretty easy to over analyze.

On one hand I feel like I might be doing that a bit, especially at my level... but on the other hand I think it's important to know everything you're doing in order to make changes and be able to get consistent with inputs.

At least we're getting some good discussion about it

Appreciate your help Ryan and others too.

C O N --- F I D --- E N C E :: F E A R

Better Laps/ Faster lap times :: C R A S H I N G

you'll get there man just practice what works for you ..... with a fast guy tip here or there

Hey this is like the SAT's

Yeah I'll get there... I just like to think things through and try to do them the best way possible because I'm basically insane.

I believe the fastest way through Turn 2 may not be the safest.

We try to get people to hold Turn 1A a little longer...thus getting more of your turning done down on the flat... before starting up the Oval. This way, if you tuck the front you'll probably not even reach the airfence.

Also, if you do highside, since you're pointing much more toward Turn 3, you'll likely not flip over into the fence.

With that in mind, it certainly makes sense to teach the late apex line at your TD's, T. Especially with the transitions onto the oval and such, which make things hairy if you have handlebar pressure...

[RyanNicholson]

I think Tony did a better job explaining my point about T2 and why there are a few different lines through there.

Though I suppose thats probably one of the reasons TTD is what it is

A lot of my advice here pertains mostly to a race environment Chris, since I know you're planning to start...I think the major difference that defines that would be the efficiency of getting around the track the fastest way possible (ie, a straighter line into T2 means you carry more corner speed around 1A, which means you can get on the gas harder after T1, etc) vs at a trackday its more about refining the general riding skills that will let you accomplish that in a safe environment.

if that makes sense

basically.... I just like riding motorcycles and talking about going fast on them.

[scottieducati]

Sorry... "Turn 1A: Entry from about 2/3 across the track (from the right) and take it tight, you want to be looking at the cones on the FAR right of T2 as you enter... this will bring your line tight around the apex and stay wide right setting up entry to T2.

Turn 2: Staying to the right lets you apex Turn 2, and you'll be surprised at how fast you can take this corner if you make a larger arc. E. Wood uses all the track from 1A, tight apex on 2 and nearly hits the wall coming out he's on the gas so hard."

I didn't say LATE Apex... the "wide right" may be what was throwing you off.

What I mean is again, E.Wood and the super fast guys take 1A so friggin tight, their knee pucks are just hovering above the very top of the curbing... personally I really don't have the sac for that, but new to mid-fast guys are safely 2-3' off the curb, almost enough to get your knee on the ground inside the curb here... I've just noticed over the years how tight the fast guys stay to the inside curbing in 1A, it's incredible to watch.

Turn 2 there are absolutely different lines, some late apex, some do as Tony mentioned where you run up the transition and get your turning done closer to the airfence... I'm not sure I can tell you what the quickest line is, as it all depends on the situation. With a clear track, the quickest line is (almost) always the one with the shallowest arc... e.g.: if you're NOT late apexing T2, you shouldn't be driving up the track on the middle / left side of the straight... you aren't carrying enough speed if you're way over there with a normal apex. You want to drift all the way up to the wall / airfence coming out of T2 with a clear track, and use all the track... from the curbing inside 1A to the wall down the back straight... the fast guys don't leave much track unused there!!!

Sorry for any confusion I also am impressed with your initiative to keep a journal, and Penguin or the 2 Day "Pro" school will definitely help loads here.

Thanks for the replies guys.

Scottie I'm pretty much in line with a lot of what you said... that was helpful, thanks. But in the pridmore video looks like he's not doing what you were saying about 1a... i.e. staying tight longer and then throwing it in hard late...?

In retrospect maybe I should have posted an amended version of what I actually keep... yes it's long but it helps me and was easier just to copy/paste it... I just wanted to know if I was way off on anything and had those several questions about trailbraking, getting on the gas, and some markers/reference points.

I also am still curious if any of you guys keep a track journal. It's helped me a lot and I think it's a valuable thing to do... but on the other hand maybe I'm missing the forest on account of the trees.

I'm on an 06 R6. About the gearing, I am going to gear the bike over the winter. Right now it's stock which is preposterously tall for Loudon. I can run almost the whole track minus the two straights in second gear but would run out of revs in a couple spots and bog a bit coming out of a few turns. With stock gearing if I really wanted to come out hard I would need to drop into first gear going into 3 and 12 which doesn't sound confidence inspiring.

In general the powerband being so high in the rpms requires some downshifts before turns in order to be able to drive out hard in my experience... but I think that will be alleviated if I change the gearing (also I don't come out on the throttle enough as it is, need to work on that). I figure I'll buy a 520 and drop 1 in the front and grab several rear sprockets. That's a winter mod for financial reasons though.

I am planning to take the penguin asap, hopefully going to fit it in this season but not sure if it's in the cards. Anyone want to loan me a sick day and a couple hundred bucks?

[legalspeed]

Sounds like Eric's pro class speach.

Good job catalogging and posting, it should serve as a reference thread for those of us trying to get faster.

Yes Tony, apex to apex thru 1-1a-2 then slide, pin. It is a lot more risky, but after you do it a while it isn't so bad. Stand around 3 and watch as any of the sub 15 guys come out of 2 and see the drift!

[TTD]

Yes Tony, apex to apex thru 1-1a-2 then slide, pin. It is a lot more risky, but after you do it a while it isn't so bad. Stand around 3 and watch as any of the sub 15 guys come out of 2 and see the drift!

I can definitely see it as being faster because it practices the basic racing rule ... make up time in the fast sections first.

[Crash Dummy Denno]

now I know why I get passed on the inside of 2 and then the buggers cut me off into the T3 chute... looks like i need to adjust my line there

[SVRACER01]

There is a line I was shown where you late apex 2 and dive under the usual line of drifting out to the wall. IF you get a good drive you can beat someone to the chute in 3.

WHO TOLD YOU THAT!!!??

[SVRACER01]

An SV prolly doesn't the overrev to be able to do this.

AHEM! i click 4th and 5th over the hill and the carry 4th from T6 to T11 thank you very much

[BMFR6]

AHEM! i click 4th and 5th over the hill and the carry 4th from T6 to T11 thank you very much

ditto. asses on their I4's thinking they are all high and mighty. thank you very much and good night.

[a13x]

That's sensible for someone who's already got a lot of their riding skills sorted out. I sometimes do short notes like that between sessions... it's after a day or two of sessions that I look at the entire track and everything I'm doing on it...

Actually in 2005 I'd just started racing and was taking those notes during the 6 race weekends I did. Never did a trackday prior to racing (ack the horror!), so... I was still sorting everything out.




You know, I have ton a bunch of control riding for various orgs around the country, and I can no longer read this thread. It makes my mind go to mush!!

Instead of sitting at home reading 19 different theories on the same thing, go up to Loudon, sit your ass in each corner during the Expert races, and watch how the top guys do it. Over, and over, and over, and over. I still do it!

[BMFR6]

Instead of sitting at home reading 19 different theories on the same thing, go up to Loudon, sit your ass in each corner during the Expert races, and watch how the top guys do it. Over, and over, and over, and over. I still do it!

agreed. you will accomplish one of two things. a) how to go faster b) the mountain you have to climb is enormous, quit and go home.

[a13x]

a) for sure
b) no way

[lrrs313]

Best advice I can give you:

Penguin 2-day pro school. Very low student-to-instructor ratio, lots of time riding and talking with some of the fastest guys on all different sorts of bikes, from I4s to SVs to (gasp) motards. Just being able to talk to Eric (who has done thousands of laps at Loudon on just about every bike out there) will give you more information than you can absorb.

[SVRACER01]

ditto. asses on their I4's thinking they are all high and mighty. thank you very much and good night.

good day sir!

[Doc]

WHO TOLD YOU THAT!!!??

It was YOU!!

[SVRACER01]

It was YOU!!

oh.

[CMG241]

don't brake going into T9

[legalspeed]

don't brake going into T9

OK, but if I wind up talking to Jody, I'm looking you up!

[SVRACER01]

OK, but if I wind up talking to Jody while shes working, I'm looking you up!

ficksd