To Race or Not To Race...

[RyanNicholson]

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So what about when you come out of 12 behind them and go to pass them along the wall and they drift, drift, drift all the way to within 1 foot of the wall
? This happens a lot.

Woops, prob should have set up on the inside. Its lap traffic, its part of the sport, its why lap records aren't set towards the end of the race. I'm just sayin if you're fast enough to lap them, you're probably skilled enough to get by them safely too.

I'd rather see more racers coming to the track than deny people one of the most exciting experiences in the world because a fast club racer thinks they are in his way.

I guess re: Ryan's post, while not a "minimum lap time" requirement as I don't agree with that, but I would tell any and all of my personal friends to do track days until they are consistently running sub 1:25-30 times and are able to maneuver through traffic with ease before they decide to go jump into racing.

I agree, I'm not saying everyone should jump straight into racing. Just that (esp as faster racers that can teach them) we shouldn't knock new/slow racers for their lack of skill.

[Degsy]

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So what about when you come out of 12 behind them and go to pass them along the wall and they drift, drift, drift all the way to within 1 foot of the wall
? This happens a lot.

Woops, prob should have set up on the inside. Its lap traffic, its part of the sport, its why lap records aren't set towards the end of the race. I'm just sayin if you're fast enough to lap them, you're probably skilled enough to get by them safely too.

I'd rather see more racers coming to the track than deny people one of the most exciting experiences in the world because a fast club racer thinks they are in his way.

I guess re: Ryan's post, while not a "minimum lap time" requirement as I don't agree with that, but I would tell any and all of my personal friends to do track days until they are consistently running sub 1:25-30 times and are able to maneuver through traffic with ease before they decide to go jump into racing.

I agree, I'm not saying everyone should jump straight into racing. Just that (esp as faster racers that can teach them) we shouldn't knock new/slow racers for their lack of skill.

Ok, so on one hand we are saying that they are skilled and sensible enough to stay on line and be predictable so people can pass them, then on the other hand the two guys racing for the win are supposed to be psychic and know to set up on the inside because the guy being passed thinks he is Val Rossi and NEEDS the 1 foot from the wall line? C'mon, you are racing for the win and you would come out of 12 and take the slow line "just in case" the guy doing 1:35 in front of you takes a bad line? What if he hears you and moves left to let you by?

[6 Fingered Man]

If im running 15 seconds faster than someone and im passing in 12 i do not expect to be behind/beside them for their whole drift to the wall.... I passed a few really slow riders in/out of 12 last week. Most people running in the 35 second range are almost stopped in 12. They would have to be on a r1 to be beside someone running 22's by the time the get by the wall.

[Degsy]

If im running 15 seconds faster than someone and im passing in 12 i do not expect to be behind/beside them for their whole drift to the wall.... I passed a few really slow riders in/out of 12 last week. Most people running in the 35 second range are almost stopped in 12. They would have to be on a r1 to be beside someone running 22's by the time the get by the wall.

What?

If you think that you cannot possibly be "pinched" at the wall by someone just because you are 15 seconds faster than them, then you probably shouldn't be racing yourself. I really hope that i'm misunderstanding what you are saying.

OK, SLOWLY, so everyone can understand.

You are coming around 12 on the last lap, fighting for the lead with someone who is right behind you.

With me so far? OK, let's continue.

You come out of 12 and there is a lapper about 40 of 50 feet in front of you, about central in the area that you should be riding in coming out of 12 and heading down the front straight.

For the sake of argument, let's assume that you are a mere mortal and don't know what is in this guys mind, so you just assume "well he has a race license, so he must know that he may be lapped at any time, so he will hold a neutral line".

Still with me? Not too hard to comprehend this situation that has happened to me ooh, say 50 times, so it must have happened to others?

OK, so you think "nice, I'll take the fast line and drive right down the wall for the win, making sure that my rival behind me has to go deep inside to pass this lapper and so lose time. This win is mine! mine! MINE!!! muhahahahaha!"

At this point (and this is where I might lose some of you, so try to stay with me), the lapper decides he will move right and take the fast line down the wall.

That's the scenario I was trying to convey. Sorry if it was a bit too complex to understand.

Remember, I can't read minds, so I don't know that this guy is suddenly going to veer towards the wall.

What should I do?

[Doc]

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So what about when you come out of 12 behind them and go to pass them along the wall and they drift, drift, drift all the way to within 1 foot of the wall
? This happens a lot.

Exactly why I still leave a gap on my right for a bike to get by on the front straight, even when racing. If you have motor to pass me on the straight, have at it. Heck I have even waved people by when I was too tired to hold them off anymore.

[6 Fingered Man]

So you are saying a dude already out of the turn on the straight needlessly starts pulling to the right? Umm... Got me there, that would suck.

I have limited experience at Loudon, but almost all of it has been on track with people running much slower than i am. In my lowly 8 races I have yet to have an issue where i felt unsafe due to someones lack of speed. Not to say it does not happen, just hasn't to me yet.

I think i would feel more unsafe passing someone riding over their head trying to keep a minimum speed in fear of loosing there license.

[zx1012r]

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So what about when you come out of 12 behind them and go to pass them along the wall and they drift, drift, drift all the way to within 1 foot of the wall
? This happens a lot.

This DOES happen a lot. I have learned many a time from being pinched to take a tighter line coming out of 12 if there is any chance of a lapper going out to the wall.

BUT!!!! I am on lightweight bikes where I can whack full throttle and make a lot of corrections without having to get out of the power. If you are on a bike with power, I can see this being a hell of a lot different!

Mark Dages 454

[RyanNicholson]

Ok, so on one hand we are saying that they are skilled and sensible enough to stay on line and be predictable so people can pass them, then on the other hand the two guys racing for the win are supposed to be psychic and know to set up on the inside because the guy being passed thinks he is Val Rossi and NEEDS the 1 foot from the wall line? C'mon, you are racing for the win and you would come out of 12 and take the slow line "just in case" the guy doing 1:35 in front of you takes a bad line? What if he hears you and moves left to let you by?

With all due respect degs, I understand where you're coming from but we're talking entry level club racing. I would most certainly hope that a slower rider is on the race line and I would expect any faster rider to be able to adjust their line accordingly to pass a lapper safely. Is it inconvenient? sure. Does it sometimes change the outcome of a race? yup. Are traffic filled laps slower than a clear track lap? Bet your ass. But its just the nature of the sport, navigating lap traffic is part of being a front runner, hell its part of racing as a sport. I've never once heard a fast expert genuinely complain about lappers being on the track, its just the nature of the beast. Of course the NV class is a little different, but the same principles apply.

There's a reason predictability is stressed over pure speed.

While I agree people should probably have some track experience before racing, I will never say that just because someone is getting lapped, they shouldn't be allowed to race at the convenience of a faster rider that might have trouble getting around them. The club as a whole isn't only about the top couple guys that win. Entries are down as they are, imagine if we didn't allow newer slower riders to race?

At this point (and this is where I might lose some of you, so try to stay with me), the lapper decides he will move right and take the fast line down the wall.

That's the scenario I was trying to convey. Sorry if it was a bit too complex to understand.

Remember, I can't read minds, so I don't know that this guy is suddenly going to veer towards the wall.

What should I do?

Sorry if you've been screwed by lap traffic in the past, you are by no means alone. If you've lost a chance at a win 50ish times by being pinched off at the wall, lets teach the guy to hold his line better (and why its important).... not deny him a race license (And yes this is why some prior track experience is important as well).

And maybe eat the extra .12 seconds it'll take to pass him on the left next time like Mark mentioned.

[butcher bergs]

So what about when you come out of 12 behind them and go to pass them along the wall and they drift, drift, drift all the way to within 1 foot of the wall
? This happens a lot.

This exact scenario happened to me and was the basis of my story. Guess who was the guy that ended up right against the wall.



Ryan - My concerns have absolutely nothing to do with being cool or fast or, or, or.... As a rider who has never turned a lap at NHMS in the 1:30's, I can say with confidence that the closing speeds at 20 seconds difference per lap is quite alot to deal with especially when battling for a position. Fact is, not everyone who can run a decent pace has their wits about them to respect everyone out there. Club racing or not, some people are there to win. Lead, follow or get the frick outta the way.

If any of my friends or family were to go racing, I'd be strongly advising them to practice until they got their lap times down to sub 1:30 allthewhile they are operating at their limit, working on their line and passing and concentrating and thinking and.......

I would just like to think that the more experienced racers on track with them have the "race maturity" to not ass pack them going into T3.

Ask Kitt how many times he's been run down by a hero who just had to stick his pass in practice and while you're at it, ask Justin too. One thing you will realize from their answers is that both riders were AM.

[Degsy]

With all due respect degs, I understand where you're coming from but we're talking entry level club racing. I would most certainly hope that a slower rider is on the race line and I would expect any faster rider to be able to adjust their line accordingly to pass a lapper safely. Is it inconvenient? sure. Does it sometimes change the outcome of a race? yup. Are traffic filled laps slower than a clear track lap? Bet your ass. But its just the nature of the sport, navigating lap traffic is part of being a front runner, hell its part of racing as a sport. I've never once heard a fast expert genuinely complain about lappers being on the track, its just the nature of the beast. Of course the NV class is a little different, but the same principles apply. There's a reason predictability is stressed over pure speed.

While I agree people should probably have some track experience before racing, I will never say that just because someone is getting lapped, they shouldn't be allowed to race at the convenience of a faster rider that might have trouble getting around them. The club as a whole isn't only about the top couple guys that win. Entries are down as they are, imagine if we didn't allow newer slower riders to race?




Sorry if you've been screwed by lap traffic in the past, you are by no means alone. If you've lost a chance at a win 50ish times by being pinched off at the wall, lets teach the guy to hold his line better (and why its important).... not deny him a race license.

And maybe eat the extra .12 seconds it'll take to pass him on the left next time.

Fair comments Ryan.

and I haven't lost my chance to win 50 times by lapped traffic (hell, i only won about 10 races and only one of them was as an expert. I'm just saying that I have come out of 12 and had someone drift over right to the wall right when I was coming up to them and i have had to check up, pass within inches or try to go around them on the left, making a drastic line change (risky). Also, they aren't all novices either. In fact, one was a 5 times world champion.

I'm not trying to deny anyone their racing, whatever their lap times. I'm just saying that I think a penguin school alone does not teach you enough track etiquette to anable you to race safely. I think at least 10 trackdays beforehand gives you a better understanding of what might happen out there.

[RyanNicholson]

I'm not trying to deny anyone their racing, whatever their lap times. I'm just saying that I think a penguin school alone does not teach you enough track etiquette to anable you to race safely. I think at least 10 trackdays beforehand gives you a better understanding of what might happen out there.

Of course, there's no denying that!!

Sure its recommended, but it isn't required.... or necessarily needed in every case. Some people just don't get into racing that way. Or, some just still have a bit to work on in the predictability and race maturity department.

Also, I know you never actually mentioned denying people race licenses, that was just kind of my "what else are we gunna do w/ them" example I suppose... didn't mean to seem like I was putting words in your mouth.


Interesting discussion regardless.

[Chippertheripper]

as a pre-novice, and probably one of the guys this conversation might be about, penguin doesn't make a business of denying people race licenses. 6 can attest, there were people who took penguin and ran the rookie race the first weekend of the year that had no business being out there. i've expressed my opinions on this to penguin already. i mean c'mon, EVERY single session was red flagged.

[6 Fingered Man]

as a pre-novice, and probably one of the guys this conversation might be about, penguin doesn't make a business of denying people race licenses. 6 can attest, there were people who took penguin and ran the rookie race the first weekend of the year that had no business being out there. i've expressed my opinions on this to penguin already. i mean c'mon, EVERY single session was red flagged.

The only way i saw you can not get your license is by missing the rookie race riders meeting. But how do you set a standard? Lap times? then on what bike, different times for different bikes? Do you take modifications into account? How much faster does the guy with the pipe have to go than the guy with the stock bike? Take track conditions into account?

Do you leave it up to instructor decision? What about the instructor who has an issue with new guys on big bikes and is harder on them then small bikes?

Regulating who races and who does not would be very difficult.

I think that is what Lrrs has tried to do with the NV class.... It is a place to put people who might not be ready but are giving it a go and must prove them self's worthy before getting into it with the guys who really know what they are doing.

[eboos]

*deleted*

[FireboltEric_MA]

as a pre-novice, and probably one of the guys this conversation might be about, penguin doesn't make a business of denying people race licenses. 6 can attest, there were people who took penguin and ran the rookie race the first weekend of the year that had no business being out there. i've expressed my opinions on this to penguin already. i mean c'mon, EVERY single session was red flagged.

It is about racers, NOT you Pre-racer!

I agree, there were some people in the first week that did not belong there, but that can be said for just about ANY day on a track. My first TD I may have been one of them guys. IDK. There will always be NooB's out there, that is how the sport is & grows, and how some get started.

I did a full season of TD's before racing, one reason was to get familiar with the track,The line & to make ensure I am comfortable passing/being passed & wouldnt be a danger to anyone out there. Not so much for myself but for other people. The other reason was to financially get ready, gear, Race prepped bike and all that other shit you learn as you go..

Just watching people out there you can tell who is "Made" for track riding. They have that learning drive and use it while out there. Some guys never get that drive to race and are fine with TD's. Others have the drive to be in first, always looking for that spot to move up the field by twisting it when others are on the binders.

Track days are great and so is Racing. If I had to make a choice I would stick with racing. Racing, I have seen my Lap Times drop a lot each race, TD's That I had timed did not do the same for me.

I think the Novice group is a mix of good and bad. You just need to deal with it and move up ASAP.

I'm a Novice and my opinion means nothing, so I will go back to reading now.
Thanks for reading my bologna post.

[Degsy]

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Here's the dilemma. Novice is a "learning" class. Not a championship class. Therefore, you will get all the newbies doing up to 1:50 or so riding in that class because there is no minimum laptime for a license. You are not automatically kicked out of novice when you reach a certain level, so people hang there too long. Trouble is, where do you say draw the line with laptime licensing and advancement? I don't know. The bike type argument is moot as most people will run the same times as a novice on pretty much any bike. The hawk crowd love to crow about how much power they are down but truth be told it makes no difference in novice for 90% of riders. Only guys doing sub 17s will see much advantage with sheer horsepower. Its easier to ride a 50hp bike at loudon than a 150hp bike.

[Degsy]

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Eric, what's your best laptime?

[6 Fingered Man]

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Here's the dilemma. Novice is a "learning" class. Not a championship class. Therefore, you will get all the newbies doing up to 1:50 or so riding in that class because there is no minimum laptime for a license. You are not automatically kicked out of novice when you reach a certain level, so people hang there too long. Trouble is, where do you say draw the line with laptime licensing and advancement? I don't know. The bike type argument is moot as most people will run the same times as a novice on pretty much any bike. The hawk crowd love to crow about how much power they are down but truth be told it makes no difference in novice for 90% of riders. Only guys doing sub 17s will see much advantage with sheer horsepower. Its easier to ride a 50hp bike at loudon than a 150hp bike.

I would have to disagree with part of this statement. If that where the case how come average ptwins NV times are in the 30 second range, average ULSB guys are in the 27 second aria and middle weight guys are in the 22 second aria?

[FireboltEric_MA]

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Eric, what's your best laptime?

Oh sure, call out the slow guy...
1:24.84 last race weekend.

[Degsy]

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1:22 is not an average mw novice time. More like 1:25, which gives you a 5 second spread in averages. Much less than the 20 second spread within class

[Degsy]

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Eric, what's your best laptime?

Oh sure, call out the slow guy...
1:24.84 last race weekend.

Do you think you are safe? Would you be as safe and doing those times if you had not done trackdays last year?

[Pittenger5]

I never did trackdays and my rookie race I did a 1:54. My first REAL race I did a 1:39. And now I'm an expert. So fuck you all.


But man I wish I knew about track days before I got into racing. So not to say it CANT be done, but I wish I would've gone about it differently.

[FireboltEric_MA]

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Do you think you are safe? Would you be as safe and doing those times if you had not done trackdays last year?

Am I Safe???...IDK, I think some one else with more skills needs to answer that question.

I do think I am "Fairly" predictable out there, which is what I was looking for doing TD's.

To answer the question, NO...I don't feel I would be as predictable out there, nor would I be doing these times if I did not do a FULL season of track days. I went to EVERY NHMS track day that BOMO & TTD offered last year in preparation for racing this year,.. It seemed the best route for me at the time to get into this crazy sport.

I am glad I took this route also, Even so, Racing is a whole different ball game when waiting for that flag to drop.

[6 Fingered Man]

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1:22 is not an average mw novice time. More like 1:25, which gives you a 5 second spread in averages. Much less than the 20 second spread within class

Ok but still a big difference, So a 5 second spread, say you set the bar at 1.30 your on an ex running 1.31s and don't get to race but the dude on the cbr going 29's does? who will be more off pace in their class. I don't think what bike is a moot point at all.

All im saying is with a difference in times between bikes you would have trouble setting a time that applies to all riders.

My girlfriend was safe as can be going 1.36's but when she got around the 1.30/31 range, she was dangerous to her self and others. Do you want to force NV riders to push hard in order to race?

[eboos]

Laptimes would be an indicator to bump out of Novice only if those times would put you at least in the .25 index range for the current grid of Amatures and if sufficient number of races are completed and the rider's race craft is proven. The current grid of LW novices is better then it has been since I started in 07. Laptimes that you could have won with last year will maybe get you in the top 3 - 5 this year. This year, every race weekend I look at Saturday's times and know that even with whatever improvement I made the previous weekend, I find that I need a bit more to stay in the fight.