Trophies!

[OreoGaborio]

aahhhh. but that was your CHOICE since you WANTED To bump faster. you didn't have to do that and in addition you ran classes where your bike WAS competitive. there's a set of people that don't have that choice. they're getting screwed and you're not willing to admit it? seriously? wow.

Who's getting screwed? Who's being forced to ride a certain bike over another? Who's being forced to ride up a class? Riding up a class isn't even allowed in Novice.

Novice GTL
Novice GTO
Novice GTU
Novice Heavyweight Grand Prix
Novice HW Superbike
Novice LW Grand Prix
Novice LW Superbike
Novice MW Grand Prix
Novice MW Superbike
Novice Ultra Light Grand Prix
Novice Ultra Light GTL
Novice Ultralight Superbike


Those are the Novice classes... doesn't look like anyone's getting screwed to me.

[smf]

Who's getting screwed? Who's being forced to ride a certain bike over another? Who's being forced to ride up a class? Riding up a class isn't even allowed in Novice.

Novice GTL
Novice GTO
Novice GTU
Novice Heavyweight Grand Prix
Novice HW Superbike
Novice LW Grand Prix
Novice LW Superbike
Novice MW Grand Prix
Novice MW Superbike
Novice Ultra Light Grand Prix
Novice Ultra Light GTL
Novice Ultralight Superbike


Those are the Novice classes... doesn't look like anyone's getting screwed to me.

you should be able to answer that without thinking... proddie twins. you used to run that class.

[OreoGaborio]

Proddy Twin bikes fit under ultralightweight rules. I see three ultralightweight classes in there and they're PLENTY competitive in those classes.

[Kurlon]

I can answer this one, yes, but it is determined by those who make the decisions on whether to bump someone or not. It is not in black and white in the rulebook.

In my case, I made 26's (the threshold required for a lightweight to bump to amateur) in 3 of 7 races that I entered in 2010 and requested a bump before round #1 this season. I was denied because the powers that be said that I was not consistently running them, even though those 3 races I did run the 26's were all in the last weekend I participated in. (I only participated in 2 weekends, the first I ran 4 races, the second 3 races)ONLY an SV? Tell that to Pete, Scott Mullin, or the #1 plate holder of Rick Doucette.

That was last year, this year there are set times for bumping, documented and everything. You hit that time, you bump.

[smf]

Proddy Twin bikes fit under ultralightweight rules. I see three ultralightweight classes in there and they're PLENTY competitive in those classes.

an ex500 is not even remotely competitive against a motard or setup hawk. the RIDER might be better and be able to compensate, but no the machinery is far inferior. so how is that a fair fight?

[OreoGaborio]

It seems as though you've gone from the "TOO BAD, LIFE'S NOT FAIR" argument to the "It's not fair! Everyone deserves a shot at a trophy!" argument.

Racing, especially in Novice, is about the rider, not the machine.

[CBR929RE]

and there is the problem for everyone that wants a trophy for their recent NV win. how are you not ignoring the other guys that are forced to run against you on less capable machinery, and only forced to so because they aren't AMs yet? seems pretty hypocritical to me.

so skill plays no part in it? The guy doing 1:45s on an EX500 only loses because his bike isn't fast enough to do the 1:26s the SV650 that won was doing? The bike is the last thing holding a NV back.

You have a race... lined up are an sv650, an RS125, and EX500 and a CBR600. Same rider on each bike. What bike will win and is it a fair race?

I know you're getting at that the CBR should win but if that's the race then the SV, RS and EX riders all chose to ride up a class. Those bikes don't win its strictly the riders fault, not what bike he's on. and if that's the case lets say the CBR did 25s and won the race while the others all did 26s and lost. those 3 "losers" all get bumped while the CBR guy stays in NV. I think they should all get the recognition they deserve, the CBR for the win and the others for the bump. And yeah I'd rather have the yellow plates and a race loss.

[Doc]

Yes I did.

And I still do. I race my LWSS legal SV in LWSB, LWGP and GTL where bigger, more powerful bikes are allowed... and last year I raced my SV against middlweights in the Pirelli Diablo 600 Challenge. So what?

I seriously hope you see my point...

A Ptwins EX500 Vs an SV is an unfair battle. The guy on the EX500 is not likely to get a Trophy racing against SV's.

You have bikes racing against one another in Novice that are not legal for the class. An SV is not legal in Ptwins is it?

[Mustang]

and there is the problem for everyone that wants a trophy for their recent NV win. how are you not ignoring the other guys that are forced to run against you on less capable machinery, and only forced to so because they aren't AMs yet? seems pretty hypocritical to me.

No one is forced to race any one particular bike. If someone is that concerned about winning in NV and can't do so on a "less capable" machine, then they should race a different machine. Or, you could consider an example such that the one Brett mentioned earlier, where Chuck (on an “inferior” SV650) beat him (on a 600RR).

[OreoGaborio]

I seriously hope you see my point...

A Ptwins EX500 Vs an SV is an unfair battle. The guy on the EX500 is not likely to get a Trophy racing against SV's.

You have bikes racing against one another in Novice that are not legal for the class. An SV is not legal in Ptwins is it?

you too... you just went from "None of them deserve a trophy" to "but everyone deserves a fair chance at a trophy"

Plenty of motards, SV's and built hawks have been beaten by EX500s. All the more reason to give them some recognition.

[smf]

It seems as though you've gone from the "TOO BAD, LIFE'S NOT FAIR" argument to the "But everyone deserves a shot at a trophy!" argument.

no. I still stand by my statement. you're playing favorites though. "oh let's honor some with trophies even tho it screws others"... seems hypocritical.

if you want to be fair then BE FAIR and change the classes so everyone has an equal opportunity to podium... or give awards based on rider performance compared to the max performance of the bike. otherwise accept the 'unfair' nature of it as it is today.

[Doc]

so skill plays no part in it? The guy doing 1:45s on an EX500 only loses because his bike isn't fast enough to do the 1:26s the SV650 that won was doing? The bike is the last thing holding a NV back.



I know you're getting at that the CBR should win but if that's the race then the SV, RS and EX riders all chose to ride up a class. Those bikes don't win its strictly the riders fault, not what bike he's on. and if that's the case lets say the CBR did 25s and won the race while the others all did 26s and lost. those 3 "losers" all get bumped while the CBR guy stays in NV. I think they should all get the recognition they deserve, the CBR for the win and the others for the bump. And yeah I'd rather have the yellow plates and a race loss.

There is no choice to ride up a class this year. You also make my point more clear, the CBR could win, get a trophy and still be a novice while all the other guys get to bump yet get no trophy.

[Doc]

you too... you just went from "None of them deserve a trophy" to "but everyone deserves a fair chance at a trophy"

Plenty of motards, SV's and built hawks have been beaten by EX500s. All the more reason to give them some recognition.

No, my position has always been. If everyone does not have a fair chance then no one deserves a trophy.

How is that?

[OreoGaborio]

C'mahn guys... You're acting as though the only novices getting on the podium are on the fastest bikes that still qualify for that class. You guys know that's not how it goes, especially in the Novice class.

[Kurlon]

A Ptwins EX500 Vs an SV is an unfair battle. The guy on the EX500 is not likely to get a Trophy racing against SV's.

Um... I placed best typically in HWSB as a NV...

...on my GS!

[smf]

Oh please...

my thought exactly

[CBR929RE]

Who's getting screwed? Who's being forced to ride a certain bike over another? Who's being forced to ride up a class? Riding up a class isn't even allowed in Novice.

except that did happen.

1 121 NV Campbell, Brian 01:30.032 35 35 2006 Yamaha YZF-R6
2 195 NV Nicolazzo, Richard 01:27.870 30 30 2003 Kawasaki ZX-6R
3 103 NV Santerre, Tyler 01:32.606 26 26 2003 Honda CBR600RR
4 325 NV Bouchard, Christopher 01:32.645 23 23 2008 Ducati 848
5 529 NV Bolduc, Patrick 01:31.954 21 21 2008 Kawasaki KX 450
6 331 NV Babaian, Brett 01:33.326 19 19 2007 Honda CBR600RR
7 797 NV Hicks, Ben 01:33.853 18 18 2008 Yamaha YZF-R6
8 339 NV Ronai, Lorant 01:33.817 17 17 2000 Suzuki SV650
9 105 NV McConville, Jim 01:36.137 16 16 2006 Suzuki GSX-R600
10 603 NV Newton, Michael 01:37.651 15 15 2001 Suzuki GSX-R600
11 738 NV Bolduc, Wallace 01:43.393 14 14 2004 Kawasaki ZX-6R
12 826 NV Parker, Mark 01:46.778 13 13 2006 Yamaha YZF-R6

2 people did it. one on an SV beat half the field and the other on a 450 motard beat a few more than that including me. we swapped place a couple times but I just struggled to go faster that day so he took the spot over me.

no. I still stand by my statement. you're playing favorites though. "oh let's honor some with trophies even tho it screws others"... seems hypocritical.

if you want to be fair then BE FAIR and change the classes so everyone has an equal opportunity to podium... or give awards based on rider performance compared to the max performance of the bike. otherwise accept the 'unfair' nature of it as it is today.

can you define max performance of each bike? isn't it dependent on the rider?

[smf]

can you define max performance of each bike? isn't it dependent on the rider?

didn't they already answer this with the bump criteria? use that.

[CBR929RE]

There is no choice to ride up a class this year. You also make my point more clear, the CBR could win, get a trophy and still be a novice while all the other guys get to bump yet get no trophy.

so Amateur plates isn't a "trophy" for a novice? I would think its the ultimate novice trophy. I thought that was something most of us actually did agree on.

[CBR929RE]

didn't they already answer this with the bump criteria? use that.

and the bump criteria says all HW/MW riders need to hit 1:23s. so that's based on expert times on those bikes. LW needs 1:26s based on expert times on those bikes. So how is that not fair when its all based off of expert times on those SAME bikes?

[Doc]

C'mahn guys... You're acting as though the only novices getting on the podium are on the fastest bikes that still qualify for that class. You guys know that's not how it goes, especially in the Novice class.

Your acting as though you should podium on your SV in MWSB.

All I am trying to say is that if I am racing a Ptwins bike or an RS125 I would rather be racing (for wood) against bikes that are similar to mine. If I choose to race up a class that is my choice, I am not really looking for wood then, just experience. These guys can't choose to race up a class and i don't believe the classes are fair enough for everyone to warrant 3 trophies be handed out. You have 3 different classes racing for the same trophy. Not fair.

If we want to talk solutions I would say they should be giving out trophys for the class your bike is legal for. That way if the dude running the EX500 vs SV650's gets a 4th place behind 3 SV's he still gets a 1st place production twins trophy.

[Mustang]

except that did happen.

It did happen, but it's not supposed to happen. Wherever that happened in Round 1, was an oversight. I think Registration was a bit overwhelmed Saturday morning, and was just rushing folks through the lines to get them out of the room. Why the software didn't catch it, I don't know... But I witnessed firsthand (before I was fully conversant on the subject, so I didn't speak up) someone registering up a class.

[smf]

and the bump criteria says all HW/MW riders need to hit 1:23s. so that's based on expert times on those bikes. LW needs 1:26s based on expert times on those bikes. So how is that not fair when its all based off of expert times on those SAME bikes?

I'm curious... did you see it go by? the point I mean.

[Doc]

so Amateur plates isn't a "trophy" for a novice? I would think its the ultimate novice trophy. I thought that was something most of us actually did agree on.

Agreed but you don't get the pretty racer on a pedestal thing.

[CBR929RE]

I'm curious... did you see it go by? the point I mean.

so you're argument is that people on similar bikes who are experts run similar times but in difference races deserve trophies. but guys on similar bikes running novice don't deserve trophies because they are grouped together? and you're the one calling others hypocrites.