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I agree/disagree here with the 15 min format.
15 is great to break the groups up to have less people riding, but somehow when I am watching other groups I still see the ill fated scenario - you see a few riders zoom past on the straights ... then nothing ... still some nothing ... oh hey look its the cluster fuck! What is also worse was the Monday sessions last time out with TTD and the one guy that got overly excited on pit out that he dumped it at T1 at Thompson forcing everyone else, literally everyone else, to sit in line while they pick up his bike.
I do like the 20 mins session purely on the fact you get more track time, and given if it red flags you still can salvage it. Although I never find myself running the WHOLE 20 mins, it's still good to have in place in case other issues come up.
Even without racing, just as someone who does a day a year or so, I find that the org itself doesn't matter as much to me as the people I run with. I'm a solid red group rider, and I am ok with that (for now). Yet, no matter what org I ride with (and I've ridden with a few), there's always some idiot who thinks he's racing in red group, making inside passes at the apex, or buzzing people way too close on the straights. And with every org I've ridden with there has been quality instruction, access to instructors, and constructive criticism presented in a fun and interactive way. I'm hoping to do more than one day next year, and though they will probably be with Penguin or Tony, I am open to other orgs as well.
Cliffs: I've never had a bad trackday. I've loved my days at Tony's and Penguin for the instruction/classroom time, and the LAPS day I did was a great bare-bones experience. I've never ridden with Fishtail, but I hear they put on a great show as well.
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If you run into a wall with a helmet on, you still ran into a wall.
Like mzdagrl was saying about the red class. I think that there are a lot of people that pick the wrong group for one reason or another.. unfortunately I don't see how any org could completely control that.. what I think I've seen is 1st timers coming in with the attitude of, "I've been riding for10 years, I'm not going in the novice class.".
I typically run intermediate and I come across people on the track that should be in novice.
And there are sometimes people in intermediate that should be in expert. I've seen some orgs try very hard to sort out groups. Which I think is a very, very good thing as large deltas in closing speeds are.. scary.
Yeah...it's a tough one. Usually we need 3 sessions to get the majority of people sorted correctly. After that, it's only a straggler here or there that needs to move.
I was told to move to expert. But I'm not sure.. it was during a bmoto event and during my video you could see that I was running much faster than most of the group but that goes back to my point. I felt that most of them needed to be in beginner... I run about 1:30 at nhis on a 750
IMHO from my own riding intermediate is around 1:25-1:40 just the days I ran. I was never an expert guy, you never want to be "that guy" in the wrong group.
Exactly!!!
Times are a ok indicator of where you should be but shouldn't be the only one. At the typical trackday you have a large range of bikes out on track at the same time. Riding a 1:25 on a 600 is not the same as riding a 1:25 on a motard. Most people on sport bikes will walk away from me on my 450 once they get it pointed and upright. The big difference is corner entry and exit. A lot of people apply the brakes early and get on the gas late even in the fast groups.
Anyway I think I may make a few trackdays this upcoming year as long as my schedule works out![]()
I'm a HUGE fan of the 15 minute sessions. I like the 4 groups as well... big fan of how days at Thompson have been going.
i like 15 minutes as well - i get increasingly fatigued through the session and am basically toast at the end of a 20 minute session (and leave the session early on occasion). if my experience is similar to others, then safety might be improved with shorter, more frequent sessions. that being said, i agree with the red flag point made above... tough balance for the organizers to nail.
regarding different track day outfits, i'm a regular at ttd's, penguin and fishtail and appreciate each for what they offer. the passing rules vary, and most of the time i prefer the more race oriented passing rules. however, for this to work well, you really need to be in a group of mature, experienced riders (racers!) to prevent incidents. again, a tough balance for the organizers to nail and conservatism is a prudent move.
lastly, i'm really glad that the track day market is growing and there are a number of (seemingly?!?) healthy track day businesses and two (soon to be three?!?) local tracks.
I did a penguin this season
. The only thing that sucked was 4 groups.. I can't remember if they were15 minutes.. but I felt like I wasn't on the track much.
Yeah, 15min blows.
If you can't hang on to a bike for 20mim, you're doing it wrong.
Cliff's Cycles KTM
NETRA enduro B-vet
Close your eyes, look deep in your soul, step outside yourself and let your mind go.
Hehehe
Even with 15 min sessions, we have people leaving the last hour or two.
Riding hard for 15 min, or even 12 minutes if you do some warm up, should be hard.
Again, it all comes down to pricing. At the expensive tracks, running 4 groups is necessary to be viable. The alternatives are jack up the price, or pack the groups.
Tony.. Don't yous do 3 groups/sessions
?
Depends on the track.
My $0.02 regarding session lengths.
15 min = too short to get heat in your tires and get a couple of good laps in
20 min = enough time to get heat in your tires get a few good laps in and stretch your endurance a bit.
Also with a 20 min session it is easier to perform the roll through pit lane to get out of a pack of bikes. In a 15 min session if you catch a slower group you may as well either stay on track and lap slowly while trying to make your way through or head back to the garage. When you roll through pit lane to gain enough of a gap that you do not immediately catch the group again it eats up quite a bit of time.
A lot of this is a moot point if you use tire warmers and make sure you are one of the first in line to head out for your session. In this case a hard 15 min is a good 15 min.
I gotta get tire warmers
Oh yeah, I hope you guys don't think I was saying that was anything the trackday org could control - it certainly isn't. In my experience, all of you struggle with the same things, and all of you excel in various areas. I am not a one-track-day-org kind of person, as I think I get different stuff out of each day I do, and it's all good.
Executive Distributor - ItWorks! Global
All-Natural Health, Wellness and Beauty www.kchristian.myitworks.com Supplements, Skin Care, Energy Drinks, and MORE!
If you run into a wall with a helmet on, you still ran into a wall.
id say i prefer 3 groups at 20 mins..
i know that cant always be the case..
Friends of mine tell me when I hit age 60 I'll appreciate 15 minute sessions.
2013 ZX6R-636
I'll say that a 20 minute TD session is not near as tough on you as an 8 lap sprint race.
I can only imagine what a 25 minute GT race is like.
I think I'm prepared to say that more time on track beats having a more emptier track.