First Bike

[NobodySpecific]

The bike doesn't need to be new to be financed...

["Dangerous" Dan K]

But do you NEED a new one?

Not insisting at all. Why does everyone always get so defensive?

Let me play devil's advocate for a minute, Doc (what else is new?)

I need to buy a new (to me) vehicle right now. Certain things in my life mean I basically need a van or good sized truck. I'm going to buy a bike too. The bike will EASILY pay for itself in a summer, just based on the difference in gas mileage for when I don't need to take a van or truck to get my shit done. (edit: That's not even including the enjoyment I get from riding, which is approximately a metric fuckton more than I get driving a van. And regardless what the financial advisers say, that means something to me.)

This is purely hypothetical, just playing devils advocate for fun and conversating, since I won't finance either. That said, if I HAD to finance the bike or not get it, I still would. I'd put it on a c.c. that I pay ~5% interest on, and I'd still come out ahead by saving wear and gas on the larger vehicle.

I'm not being defensive at all, I just like to debate

FWIW I've never financed a vehicle in my life. I just see how it could be prudent for others to do so in certain situations.

[NobodySpecific]

I just see how it could be prudent for others to do so in certain situations.

I think this is all we want Doc to say. Because right now he's basically saying anybody that finances a bike is dumb.

[Doc]

I think this is all we want Doc to say. Because right now he's basically saying anybody that finances a bike is dumb.

I never said that!

[NobodySpecific]

I never said that!

But you are so insistent that you should NEVER finance a bike that it implies it.

[Doc]

I even said I wasn't insisting!

I see how it is prudent to finance a car/truck/house.

I do not see the prudence in financing your first bike.

["Dangerous" Dan K]

I even said I wasn't insisting!

I see how it is prudent to finance a car/truck/house.

I do not see the prudence in financing your first bike.

I just gave you an example (my current situation, if you disregard that it won't be my first and pretend that I'd need to use plastic to get it) where it IS prudent, IMO. No rebuttal, if you're so sure it's not?

[Doc]

I just gave you an example (my current situation, if you disregard that it won't be my first and pretend that I'd need to use plastic to get it) where it IS prudent, IMO. No rebuttal, if you're so sure it's not?

In your above example, even if the bike will pay for itself I do not see the point. You can get a "metric Fuckton" of fun riding a non financed bike.

If someone wants to finance a new bike they can do so. Live and let live. My personal opinion is that it is not the best financial move to make.

[NobodySpecific]

I even said I wasn't insisting!

I see how it is prudent to finance a car/truck/house.

I do not see the prudence in financing your first bike.

Prudent? Maybe not, but I'd rather see somebody finance a (used and cheap!!) bike and buy the appropriate gear than just buy all the bike that they can afford.

We don't live in an ideal world, and most people won't wait until they can afford something 100% to buy it. Knowing that, and understanding that not everybody can afford to drop $4k, if they are going to get a bike anyway, that's what I would try to steer them into. If you go to somebody with the arguments that you have, they will just ignore you because you are flat out saying no to them getting what they want, and people don't like being told no.

Edit: By the way, I'm not getting defensive, I'm simply trying to defend my argument. I'm not attacking you in any way, simply responding to the words I see.

[markbvt]

But do you NEED a new one?

Do you NEED a new house?

Ultimately we don't NEED anything in life except the barest necessities to stay alive. So it comes down to a question of how each individual WANTS to live his/her life.

Not insisting at all. Why does everyone always get so defensive?

Part of the problem here is that it's difficult to determine tone on a written forum. For whatever it's worth, my posts are intended as friendly conversation, not defensive argument. I totally respect your point of view, and I agree that in a perfect world it's the best course of action in most respects. I'm just saying that there's more than one way to skin a cat.

In your above example, even if the bike will pay for itself I do not see the point. You can get a "metric Fuckton" of fun riding a non financed bike.

If someone wants to finance a new bike they can do so. Live and let live. My personal opinion is that it is not the best financial move to make.

Again -- not talking about a beginner financing a new bike. I agree that's a bad move. I'm talking about financing a relatively inexpensive used bike. The important point here is the word "relatively" -- $2000, for example, may be an insignificant expense to one person, but impossible to afford in one lump sum for someone else.

Look at this another way: if you've got $100,000 in your bank account, dropping $2000 is essentially pocket change. But if you've got only $10,000 in your bank account, $2000 represents 20% of your savings. I would argue that it's a lot more prudent to finance those $2000 than to pay the money outright, because in the event of an emergency, you might need quick access to as much money as possible. I don't think of an emergency buffer as being a set amount, I think of it as being as much as possible unless you're so well off that it doesn't matter.

--mark

["Dangerous" Dan K]

In your above example, even if the bike will pay for itself I do not see the point. You can get a "metric Fuckton" of fun riding a non financed bike.

If someone wants to finance a new bike they can do so. Live and let live. My personal opinion is that it is not the best financial move to make.

In my above example, what if I worked a BS job and couldn't find anything better, and could not afford to buy ANY bike outright? I'm not saying it'd be smart to finance a new Aprillia, but it could still be the best financial move (even disregarding the fun factor) to put a cheap bike on a credit card.

Again, I'm just trying to get you to see there are times when it IS prudent for someone to do that. In my case, I'll end up paying cash for a cheapish van and a dirt cheap bike. Then again, I have the knowledge, tools and friends to work on a dirt cheap bike. If I were a starving dude working part time @ BK and couldn't find any better, struggling to make rent, the bike on the card may be the best financial move. I don't see how you can rebute that ANYTHING that'll pay for itself in less than a season is a bad financial move.

For the most part I like to live similar to how you describe. I've never financed a vehicle in my life. That's why my next bike will be cheap as hell (well that and I'd rather spend my $ on racing). I just know that not everyone is fortunate enough to be able to live as I do (and I'm FAR from well off, hell I'm probably not even middle class).

I have friends in the situation that I describe, working construction when they can get it, needing a pickup (or they could not get ANY work at all), and then having to use that pickup for EVERYTHING. I think plenty of them would actually SAVE money by financing a bike, but when these people are not sure if they can buy enough food to get through the week they sure as hell can't drop enough $ on a bike to get anything reliable.

[NobodySpecific]

In my above example, what if I worked a BS job and couldn't find anything better, and could not afford to buy ANY bike outright? I'm not saying it'd be smart to finance a new Aprillia, but it could still be the best financial move (even disregarding the fun factor) to put a cheap bike on a credit card.

Again, I'm just trying to get you to see there are times when it IS prudent for someone to do that. In my case, I'll end up paying cash for a cheapish van and a dirt cheap bike. Then again, I have the knowledge, tools and friends to work on a dirt cheap bike. If I were a starving dude working part time @ BK and couldn't find any better, struggling to make rent, the bike on the card may be the best financial move. I don't see how you can rebute that ANYTHING that'll pay for itself in less than a season is a bad financial move.

For the most part I like to live similar to how you describe. I've never financed a vehicle in my life. That's why my next bike will be cheap as hell (well that and I'd rather spend my $ on racing). I just know that not everyone is fortunate enough to be able to live as I do (and I'm FAR from well off, hell I'm probably not even middle class).

I have friends in the situation that I describe, working construction when they can get it, needing a pickup (or they could not get ANY work at all), and then having to use that pickup for EVERYTHING. I think plenty of them would actually SAVE money by financing a bike, but when these people are not sure if they can buy enough food to get through the week they sure as hell can't drop enough $ on a bike to get anything reliable.

Have you done the math to show it would in fact pay for itself in a season? Taxes, registration, inspection, tires, chain and sprockets (amortized out over the life of the chain/sprockets), helmet (assuming you don't have one), any other riding gear, etc? My guess is the total expense is higher than you realize.

[markbvt]

Have you done the math to show it would in fact pay for itself in a season? Taxes, registration, inspection, tires, chain and sprockets (amortized out over the life of the chain/sprockets), helmet (assuming you don't have one), any other riding gear, etc? My guess is the total expense is higher than you realize.

It all comes down to what kind of bike it is and what kind of car/truck you drive. If your only vehicle is a gas-guzzling truck, and you buy a used 250 dual-sport, then yes, it'll almost certainly pay for itself. Keep in mind that most of those cheaper bikes also take much cheaper consumable components like chains and tires. You can put a $75 set of Cheng Shins on that dual-sport, as opposed to a $300 set of sport-touring tires on a sportbike, and they'll probably even last longer.

Obviously the math isn't quite as compelling if you drive a compact car that gets 30mpg and want to get a sportbike.

--mark

[NobodySpecific]

It all comes down to what kind of bike it is and what kind of car/truck you drive. If your only vehicle is a gas-guzzling truck, and you buy a used 250 dual-sport, then yes, it'll almost certainly pay for itself. Keep in mind that most of those cheaper bikes also take much cheaper consumable components like chains and tires. You can put a $75 set of Cheng Shins on that dual-sport, as opposed to a $300 set of sport-touring tires on a sportbike, and they'll probably even last longer.

Obviously the math isn't quite as compelling if you drive a compact car that gets 30mpg and want to get a sportbike.

--mark

Wasn't saying it can't be done, but most people just tend to look at gas mileage while forgetting that car tires last 5-10 times longer, etc.

Why do you think I want that little XR250 as a commutard, because I know it will be far cheaper than anything else I can drive

["Dangerous" Dan K]

Have you done the math to show it would in fact pay for itself in a season? Taxes, registration, inspection, tires, chain and sprockets (amortized out over the life of the chain/sprockets), helmet (assuming you don't have one), any other riding gear, etc? My guess is the total expense is higher than you realize.

I've had a bunch of bikes. I'm buying something old and cheap. Tax will be negligible. Insurance will be minimum liability, I have an umbrella to cover me beyond that and I don't care about insuring the bike itself.

I'm also moving back to NH, so I'll be a NH resident. From my last bike in NH a couple years ago, which was similar value, here's a rough estimate:

Tax & reg: $50*
Inspection: $20
Tires: race takeoffs, free.
Gear: I have it all
Insurance: $30/month, $180 for 6 months

* I don't recall separate as you pay them together, but it was no more than $50. Possibly less.

So, before you figure sprocket & chain wear, I'm looking @ around $200/year before fuel. I've never kept a street bike long enough to replace that stuff due to wear, and I usually sell them for about what I pay.

Let's say I lose 100% of the value of the bike, for arguments sake. In reality I'll sell it and buy another, rinse wash repeat as I always have.

I'll probably end up $1000 into a bike.

That's $1200.

I can expect 50mph on a bike, cruising as I would in a van (conservative, not over SL, etc). If I burn more it's because I'm playing, and the difference is fun $, not commuting cost. The van will see under 10MPG if the one my best friend is driving is any indication (and I'm looking for the same van). We'll call it 10MPG

Fuel here is currently $3.50/gal or so.



This is where it gets interesting. I had actually NOT done the math, I was just going on what I've seen in the past when I've had both as opposed to just one. Since you brought it up, I just ran some numbers. Assuming 100% loss of bike purchase $ (which I never figure on since I always sell them) I thought it would have taken longer to pay for itself than it does! I had to do these #'s assuming a 100% loss of bike purchase #'s because that's how I worded it when I ran my mouth and said "the bike will pay for itself in a season".

We're going to use 5000 miles for this exercise.

5000/50 (bike MPG) = 100 (gallons needed)
100 x 3.5 (fuel cost/gal) = $350 to go 5000 miles

5000/10 (van MPG) = $500
500 x 3.5 (fuel cost/gal) = $1750 to go 5000 miles

$1750 - $350 = $1400 saved in fuel alone.

So, using a higher than what I consider realistic MPG for the van, and assuming I just throw the bike off a bridge when I've ridden it 5K miles, I'd STILL be ahead. Not to mention the enjoyment factor and that in the real world the bike will still be worth something when I'm done! Shiiiiiiiit... maybe I should bump the bike budget?


edit: Yeah, I can be a geek.

[Danz19899]

I worked said BS job and it would have taken me till 2015 to save up that much cash. So i said fuck that and financed my 09 zx6r. Also did 7 track days and crashed that bike i still owe over 6k on. Is it smart . . . NO . . . . would i do it again, without a doubt

Fuck all these people telling you what to do. Get a bike and enjoy

[NobodySpecific]

Thanks, I really just wanted an example out there of having done the math, specifically for the newer riders who may not have taken everything into consideration. You clearly have, and it works out to be a nice deal! I use my bike too much, so I think in the end it will cost me more than it saves, but I'm ok with that

[markbvt]

Insurance: $30/month, $180 for 6 months

And that's a lot higher than most people would need to pay for a cheap commuter bike. I pay $250/year for full coverage on my '08 Wee-Strom. My first bike, the same XT350 that's now Keith's, I paid around $100/year. So significant additional savings there.

--mark

["Dangerous" Dan K]

I worked said BS job and it would have taken me till 2015 to save up that much cash. So i said fuck that and financed my 09 zx6r. Also did 7 track days and crashed that bike i still owe over 6k on. Is it smart . . . NO . . . . would i do it again, without a doubt

Fuck all these people telling you what to do. Get a bike and enjoy

Thanks, I really just wanted an example out there of having done the math, specifically for the newer riders who may not have taken everything into consideration. You clearly have, and it works out to be a nice deal! I use my bike too much, so I think in the end it will cost me more than it saves, but I'm ok with that

I actually hadn't. You got me thinking, I'm a dork, and math is fun so I just did it. I have the savings @ 7500 & 10K miles too if you're interested.

And that's a lot higher than most people would need to pay for a cheap commuter bike. I pay $250/year for full coverage on my '08 Wee-Strom. My first bike, the same XT350 that's now Keith's, I paid around $100/year. So significant additional savings there.

--mark

Very true. He was asking about me, and I was being honest. You'd be amazed what a couple speeding tickets and one or two bigguns (reckless HURTS!) will do to your premiums. Shit takes what, 7 years to go away? I don't think I stopped driving and riding like a complete asshole until ~08.

To be honest, I probably won't always ride it like a grandma, and I probably won't see 50mpg. I easily COULD if I drive it like I'd drive the van though, and that was the point of this exercise. The savings one could get if using it as a commuter like they would their larger, gas guzzling vehicle. I will drive it a lot more grandma-ish than I used to though, I am done with those damn tickets. I get my rush on the track now.

My last bike was a 74 CB550 and I DID drive it like grandma would drive the van. This one will be sportier, and it will probably see some fun 30-70MPH runs on on-ramps and the like, but that's about it (unless it makes its way to a TD).

["Dangerous" Dan K]

One other thing I didn't take into consideration, that I'm going to get shit for I expect: Wear and tear.

When you buy an older 1 ton van with 100K+, shit is EXPENSIVE when it goes. Just a brake job in a one ton is serious coin. So, I'm confident that before the bike needs anything significant maintenance wise, the van would have needed something that costs about as much as the bike for going the same miles. My buddy already had a $500 (IIRC) brake job on his van. It needs a $400 water pump now. He's had it probably under 5K miles. I'm sure there is other stuff, that's just the big stuff I can think of offhand. So, I think it's safe to say he'll be over the purchase price of the bike by putting 5K on that van. We should all be able to agree that by negating wear and tear I actually made the VAN look better, not the bike. I just don't have any reliable way to factor in wear and tear to get hard #'s, but it's certainly less for the bike than for the van for equal miles covered.

[Danz19899]

its ok Dan . . . i was waiting for that one lol

["Dangerous" Dan K]

its ok Dan . . . i was waiting for that one lol

Waiting for what one? If you meant my reply to you where I quoted you, I was agreeing and saying rock on for doing what you love and having a blast.

Or did you mean my gigantic math rant?

Or maybe that I ignored wear and tear?

Man, I spend way too much time like that (confused). Especially here (physically, not interwebz) surrounded by people that do shit like build motors and weld aluminum.

[Danz19899]

was referring to the little I'm with stupid dig lol. But all of its pretty damn amusing.

that post was well played . . . but damn you put way to much effort into it lol

["Dangerous" Dan K]

was referring to the little I'm with stupid dig lol. But all of its pretty damn amusing.

that post was well played . . . but damn you put way to much effort into it lol

1) I use instead of mostly always. In no way was it a dig, or even calling you stupid. I wouldn't have been agreeing (hence the "I'm with" part) otherwise. I guess I'm just an asshole, but that's how my friends and I talk to each other. My best friend is usually referred to as "this asshole" or something similar. You should HEAR the shit they say about me! No insult meant by it.

2) Yeah, I did, but he got me wondering. Math amuses me. It's not like it was work for me, it was a few minutes well spent keeping me entertained. I should be outside working on the race bike but it's too goddamn cold.

[Danz19899]

Ahhhhh i gotcha. glad you agree lol