Ducati, the 1098 and WSBK rules

[akira700]

So what do you all think about this?

http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2007/...enicaliint.htm

Interview with Ducati's Claudio Domenicali about World Superbike rules.
They all seems to be playing a game of chicken to see whose going
to blink first.

[highsider]

Boo-fuckin-hoo. Build a better twin with the correct displacement, build an inline four, or quit racing and the shut the hell up.

[Honclfibr]

I'd like to race in the Dash For Cash this year at loudon, because they pay money and I like money. I've given this some thought and I've decided to stick with my EX500 because that is my philosophy. So in order to be competitive with all the 600s I feel they should be forced to run without tires.

[KillBill]

Wow, you would think that getting the rules changed would have been something that they would have considered before building the 1098. It is getting them even more attention though.

[Awesome]

Their bikes aren't as good so they should get a head start too. Like two laps. it's only fair.

[Tabby]

Here is my response from another forum:

I agree. What is next? Every time the "fours" make an improvement, the twins get more diplacement? I'm sorry, I don't like this scenario at all. If one manufactuer comes up with a superior design, or even just a good improvement on an aging one, that is cost effective, and it shows results on the track, and the sales floor, it is up to the competitors to meet or beat the challenge. What's happening now, is nothing more than moto-politcal-correctness, and it sucks. If a manufacturer chooses to stick with a design even though it's limitations will grow verses the competition, then they should accept the circumstances or CHANGE THE DESIGN. Even in MotoGP, they get to choose what kind of bike they want to make and its' particular set of rules, then if it doesn't pan out, they can pick another design/rule set. Who said Ducati has to stick with just twins? They had to face up to the laws of physics in MotoGP, and they have done well with their machines, with no apparent loss in image, because they chose to make,,,, GASP,,,, a four. Gee, what if Honda decides to sell a V5 sportbike, and it sells enough to be threat, and performs likewise? Do you think Suzuki and the rest will whine about it? I don't think so. I think they would either improve their existing designs to match, or up the ante. That is what they have been doing that to each for decades. Gee, who benefits from that? No offense to Ducati, because the machines they do make, are much better than my capabilities as a rider. Hell, my 86 gixxer is still better than I am. But I'm not whining about that. If I can't stand the heat, I'll stay out of the kitchen. I won't cry like a baby and demand that they turn the temperature down,,,just for me.

And more of the same from one member:
Tabby, Not all of us want to ride the same bike. Most of us want to see what we ride on the race track (it makes the racing more interesting). Look at MX, they have allowed the 4 strokes close to double the displacement so that they can compete with the 2-strokes.

If Moto Guzzi comes out with a V-8 engine and a new faring design that encloses the front wheel that costs $60,000 dollars but smokes everyone else's bike should we just say that everyone else should come out with V-8 bikes with impractical fairings?

It used to be 750CC 4 bangers against 1000CC 2 bangers, what happend to that rule?

And finally:

I remember about when that rule came about{82-83 AMA}. IMO, that was a token rule to help fill out the grids with privateers that were running the aging Ducati and Guzzi twins. To a degree, it was succesful, when it started out. Then Ducati decided to bring their twins into modern times with the 851. As far as 2 strokes vs 4 strokes in MX, I think that is just a primer for when the 2 strokes will just go away{Sadly!}. Without any emission issues looming, I question if 4 strokes would be evolving the way they are, in that arena. As far as big bucks designs, like what you described as an example, it would be hollow pride for the manufacturer, because precious few would buy it.
Honda's RC45 was very expensive, similar situation. I can't remember the last time I've seen one. The RC51, on the other hand, and the CBR1000, again, are out there. If you have developed a certain amount of brand loyalty, in specifically, a sportbike environment, {and I said that to exclude an obvious market segment}, would you discriminate against your brand because it came out with a new design that is as good or better than the competition, just because it is a departure from "tradition"? Remember, EVERY tradition has a beginning. Notice, I'm trying not to assign numbers here. I don't want to start a foolish twins vs fours, flame war. I just think Ducati is trying to artifically keep themselves at the top, instead of fighting straight up. Hey, I'm just an opinionated middle aged fart. Don't take me seriously, nobody else does.

There, I feel better, and I'll shut up now.





:

[akira700]

Plus this is all crazy given how Bayliss, Xaus and Lanzi
are doing now on equal displacement, which is pretty well.

Domenicali says it because the current engine is more "tuned".
So since they don't want to continue to have to "tune" the engine,
they want the rules makers to give them a 20% displacment handicap?

Don't you think Ten Kate Honda "tune" their engine too?

Isn't this part of the the competition?
Maybe they should all ride 50cc Honda Ruckus's with
a Bridgestone control tire ? If they just call it a Superbike
maybe people would be fooled !

I think a Ruckus with RC51 fairings could be pretty cool

[KillBill]

A handicap in racing is not fair. I say either comply with the rules and regulations that ALL of the other teams do or withdraw and stop complaining.

[Karaya One]

Suzuki has already replied saying they will leave if Ducati gets the increase and the fours don't....

[KillBill]

As they should. Good for them!!!

[highsider]

Suzuki has already replied saying they will leave if Ducati gets the increase and the fours don't....

I dont know what I think of that either. All of these companies whine too much. If Ducati did get this (stupid) rule passed, I'd like to see the Japanese manufacturers come up with some better twins. The last time they had to do that, we got bikes like the TL and the RC51, which were cool.

[Awesome]

I don't see why everyone else should have to develop from scratch because ducati decided they would build something that wouldn't fit the rules. Wan't this issue brought up with AMA this year and ducati was told to piss off?

[KillBill]

I don't see why everyone else should have to develop from scratch because ducati decided they would build something that wouldn't fit the rules. Wan't this issue brought up with AMA this year and ducati was told to piss off?

aeX

Any thoughts since you are going to be working for Ducati in the near future?

[Tabby]

Ok, I lied. A little more from my other rant.

The same rules for EVERYBODY. Make a bike within the rules, that wins on the track and the sales floor, or go home. If a design gets too old, and can't cut it, retire it. Just because you like a certain kind of design, doesn't mean it deserves to win. With that kind of attitude, maybe Suzuki should have bent the rules so the beloved A/O motors could still compete in there too, eh? NO, even that engine had its' day and Suzuki had to move on. This is the same kind of crap that Harley used to dole out to the British {through the AMA} in the 60s, in flat track. If the machines get too fast for conditions, change the rules for all of them. I don't understand this "level the playing field" stuff. If the racing is close, it is close. If it isn't, why do we have to punish the team that gave the whoopin. To me, it's up to the losers to step up their game, period. I learned that the hard way as a kid on the local swim team. Nobody gave me any special preferences so I could win a few. I earned my wins, and,,,I earned my losses. Like I said earlier, it is all too politically correct, and even reminds me of Nascar. Just look at 600 Supersport in the US. Those dudes fight tooth and nail.

[Paul_E_D]

The twins are only competitive because they are allowed some SERIOUS tuning advantages. Like non stock cranks I believe, and non stock intakes, fueling etc. THey are NOT competitive in stock form. Their request is for more displacement and NO tuning advantage.

If you want interesting bikes, you need rules that allow it. If you all want jap fours, then make rules that don't allow other configurations any latitude.

I personally think Ducati Vs. Japan IS what has made WSB sucessful. They'd be shooting themselves in the foot to not flex on this one. How insanely boring would it be to watch Toseland all season?

[a13x]

The twins are only competitive because they are allowed some SERIOUS tuning advantages. Like non stock cranks I believe, and non stock intakes, fueling etc. THey are NOT competitive in stock form. Their request is for more displacement and NO tuning advantage.

If you want interesting bikes, you need rules that allow it. If you all want jap fours, then make rules that don't allow other configurations any latitude.

I personally think Ducati Vs. Japan IS what has made WSB sucessful. They'd be shooting themselves in the foot to not flex on this one. How insanely boring would it be to watch Toseland all season?

I'm with Paul.

[a13x]

aeX

Any thoughts since you are going to be working for Ducati in the near future?

Here are my thoughts as a fan of racing, not as a Ducati employee, which I'm not (yet). I'm merely stating this as another motorcycle racing fan.

You asked for it... (copied from another board where I already addressed this)

---------------------------------------
a13x said:
Ducati has a valid point. You could see this day coming ever since the I4 OEM's lobbied to get their 750's bumped up to 1000.

Anyone who thinks a 1000cc Twin and a 1000cc I4 are even close to 'equal' need to go over the numbers. For instance.. how about a stock 1098 (red) compared to a stock 1st gen ZX10 (blue)



A 999 with Akro pipes puts out 10hp less than the stock 1098 on that same dyno. Lets look at that again. A 999 with aftermarket pipes is 20HP behind a bone stock ZX-10, that's rediculous.



Currently, even thou the Ducati's get away with less 'strict' restrictions than the I4's, they aren't even close powerwise. The built-to-the-hilt, grenade, mega-expensive 999 motors are putting out about 195HP last I read, while the I4's are around 220 - 230. Also the longtime advantage twins had squirting out of corners due to the power delivery has been taken away somewhat by the introduction of effective traction-control on the I4's the last few years.

The I4's weigh the same as the twins (weight handicap was removed in 2003), make 20 to 30 more HP, get out of the corners just as good, and cost the OEM's less to build while far more reliable. Not to mention they still MAKE the version of the bike they are racing.


Motorcycle organizations all over the world constantly monitor and evolve the various performance indexes that constitute racing classes. This isn't a outrageous offense nor request on Ducati's part.

The 1098 is currently legal for World Superstock racing, where it's competitive, not a world-killer. If allowing the 1098 allows Ducati to get back into AMA racing, continue in World Superbike, be competitive, and still make the budget numbers, I don't see what the problem is.

Oh yea the Troy Bayliss Factor. Troy Bayliss is probably one of the greatest Ducati racers of all time. Not to mention he, and the rest of the guys on the 999 have bucketloads of data on the bike. The F07 is the exact same bike as the F06, which in turn was a small change from the F05.

Look at Bayliss' 2006 season, he dominated the first half of the year winning 8 of the first 12 races. Past the midway point he only won 4 of 12. What happened.. did he slow down.. hello? No, moreso all the other teams started to figure out their bikes and traction-control systems and their programs kept getting stronger. Whereas the 999 is at the end of it's evolutionary chain.

Biaggi.. hahah

Personally I think that's a empty threat. Alstare and Biaggi want to go (back) to MotoGP in 2008 regardless of what Ducati does. They are just looking to cover their asses incase they can't put together a competitive GP package. Since Biaggi currently is the Big Hot Shit GP Guy on the WSB grid, Alstare knows they have a effective bargaining chip and are using it for all it's worth.

falconeight said: My only argument is that I would rather see 1000cc v-twins battle 800cc or 850cc inline four rather than have the engine sizes grow. As a consumer I would not want and would never buy a bike bigger than a 1000cc twin or 750 inline 4. Insurance would get even higher and its in no way neccessary. I would like to see WSBK restrict bikes to a certain BHP and leave the engines alone or make them smaller.

Oh I agree 100% with that. But AMA / FIM was pressured by Japan to allow the 1000cc I4's and here we are.


Originally it was:

750 4 cylinders
900 3 cylinders
1000 2 cylinders

Ducati ran the 916 until the 750's got too fast, then they used their allowable 'cap space' and bumped up to 998/999. The Japanese on the other hand had a few options. Honda bent the rules and made V4 750's, low-number legal bikes, and won a few championships (RC30, RC45). Then they abandoned that course of action and left Superbike racing until the RC51 with which they won with as well.

Kawi, Suzuki, and Yamaha got tired of 750's as a class in general once sales of those bikes slowed down. The everyday consumer either bought 600's or 1000's and 750 sales slowly died off. Hence... the Big Four wanted to race 1000 I4's so they could sell them.

And here we are.

Don't point your finger at Ducati, they are a tiny company who sold 4500 bikes in the USA in 2004. Take a gander over at the Big Four who think Joe Neighbor should buy a 155HP stock streetbike.

Besides the RC51, anyone else remember Suzuki's attempt at a vtwin racebike, the TLR1000? Suzuki at one point had 4 factory riders in the AMA, two racing the GSXR750, and two racing the TLR1000, all in the Superbike class! That was amazing to watch. The bike sucked however and they quickly abandoned that strategy, bored and stroked the 750 motor, and introduced the class changing GSXR1000.


and lastly

Dennis Noyes, you so crazy! *click link below*
SPEEDtv.com | World Superbike | WSBK: Ducati Threatens to Quit Unless 1198 Allowed (Part I) | by Dennis Noyes | The latest headlines from FIM World Superbike | Bayliss, Corser, Haga, Toseland, Barros, Pitt, Lanzi, Xaus, Abe, Walker, Ducati, Suzuki, Y

There have been lots of headlines and knee-jerk reactions. On the surface, it is hard to understand why the factory that has won 12 of 19 titles in the young world championship, the team that won last year’s in commanding style, would want or need a 20% increase in capacity. A closer look at the rules and the precedents in World Superbike racing, however, makes Ducati’s position seem more logical. - Dennis Noyes

[a13x]

ps: BMW, KTM, Buell, and Aprillia are all on the fence about (re)joining Superbike racing. With the rules like they are (1000 twins) none of them are going to jump into the ring.

[akira700]

Hey Paul,

Thanks for making this a debate ! Up till your post Ducati was
getting it pretty bad !

I think flexibility in the rules would be good but why
make the flex just for one manufacturer. This sort of
stuff should get made way out in advance and be based on
the science and physics of the bikes not just based on
whim of one manufacturer.

Why cant Ducati make a kick ass I4 for WSBK?
Isnt their Moto GP bike an I4?
When Stoner wins on his Desmo Moto GP bike it still
helps Ducati V-Twin sales, I would think.

[Tabby]

Ducati's GP bike is a V4, and I think it is still a 90 degree V.

[Awesome]

Why cant Ducati make a kick ass I4 for WSBK?

Ducati Corse Managing Director Claudio Domenicali:

So we started from when I took over in product development, and decided that we had to stick with a Twin, because this is our philosophy

[benVFR]

Well they can make a V-4 (like Aprilia) and try and use that for WSBK.. I'd rather see them do that.

The 999 not having a displacement advantage in racing had little to do with it's lackluster sales IMO. People didn't buy the 999 as much cause they thought it looked ugly.

I would seriously question what Ducati is thinking if they think their 999/1098 whatever are seriously competing for street sales with the 1000cc I-4 bikes from the Big-4 anyway. They cost enough extra that they're just not competing for the same buyers. Ducati buyers are much more interested in exclusivity and having something different. How much does Ducati's top level racing success matter to the typical owner?

And I don't see why changing to an alternate engine layout is going to drastically harm them either. I'd imagine the only reason they haven't done so already is just the sheer # of financial and management issues Ducati has had over the years.

If they want to grow street sales increasing the size of their dealership network, bringing prices down, reducing maintenance requirements, etc.. on the street bikes will probably bring more success then their crazy efforts to win various high level racing championships with a twin when they are clearly better off with something else for the racebike.

Even if they made yet another I-4 it wouldn't have to be cookie cutter, there are plenty of ways they can still differentiate themselves. Keep the Trellis frame, continue sticking premium suspension components on the bike, continue to put more effort into styling then the Big-4, continue to sell the lifestyle aspect, etc.. (But a V-4 would still be better IMO for differentiation)

[Paul_E_D]

Ducati's GP bike is a V4 like Suzuki and Honda.

It's one manufacturer now, but with a rules change, others would be more likely to join. How about KTM with their new twin? Give them reason to believe they can compete and maybe they'll build a bike.

Ducati needs to sell bikes, and they can't compete DIRECTLY with the big four, so they make a different product. Their sales are tied to heritage and uniqueness, not just numbers.

[highsider]

ps: BMW, KTM, Buell, and Aprillia are all on the fence about (re)joining Superbike racing. With the rules like they are (1000 twins) none of them are going to jump into the ring.

You and Paul both bring up some very interesting points.

However, I still feel that racing, and the rules set by the sanctioning bodies, are what makes better bikes for us consumers. Ducati is clinging to V-Twins because its part of their "mystique". If it is that important, they should kick their designers in the ass and make better, stonger V-Twins. Otherwise, they could freak out and make up a cool I4 or even an I3.

Or a radial engine.

Or *something*.

Just be creative, instead of whining.

[benVFR]

I realize in retrospect my thoughts only reflect the US... in Europe Ducati's sales might seem far more tied to WSBK.