Ducati, the 1098 and WSBK rules

[Doc]

Here are my thoughts as a fan of racing, not as a Ducati employee, which I'm not (yet). I'm merely stating this as another motorcycle racing fan.

You asked for it... (copied from another board where I already addressed this)

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a13x said:
Ducati has a valid point. You could see this day coming ever since the I4 OEM's lobbied to get their 750's bumped up to 1000.

Anyone who thinks a 1000cc Twin and a 1000cc I4 are even close to 'equal' need to go over the numbers. For instance.. how about a stock 1098 (red) compared to a stock 1st gen ZX10 (blue)



A 999 with Akro pipes puts out 10hp less than the stock 1098 on that same dyno. Lets look at that again. A 999 with aftermarket pipes is 20HP behind a bone stock ZX-10, that's rediculous.



Currently, even thou the Ducati's get away with less 'strict' restrictions than the I4's, they aren't even close powerwise. The built-to-the-hilt, grenade, mega-expensive 999 motors are putting out about 195HP last I read, while the I4's are around 220 - 230. Also the longtime advantage twins had squirting out of corners due to the power delivery has been taken away somewhat by the introduction of effective traction-control on the I4's the last few years.

The I4's weigh the same as the twins (weight handicap was removed in 2003), make 20 to 30 more HP, get out of the corners just as good, and cost the OEM's less to build while far more reliable. Not to mention they still MAKE the version of the bike they are racing.


Motorcycle organizations all over the world constantly monitor and evolve the various performance indexes that constitute racing classes. This isn't a outrageous offense nor request on Ducati's part.

The 1098 is currently legal for World Superstock racing, where it's competitive, not a world-killer. If allowing the 1098 allows Ducati to get back into AMA racing, continue in World Superbike, be competitive, and still make the budget numbers, I don't see what the problem is.

Oh yea the Troy Bayliss Factor. Troy Bayliss is probably one of the greatest Ducati racers of all time. Not to mention he, and the rest of the guys on the 999 have bucketloads of data on the bike. The F07 is the exact same bike as the F06, which in turn was a small change from the F05.

Look at Bayliss' 2006 season, he dominated the first half of the year winning 8 of the first 12 races. Past the midway point he only won 4 of 12. What happened.. did he slow down.. hello? No, moreso all the other teams started to figure out their bikes and traction-control systems and their programs kept getting stronger. Whereas the 999 is at the end of it's evolutionary chain.

Biaggi.. hahah

Personally I think that's a empty threat. Alstare and Biaggi want to go (back) to MotoGP in 2008 regardless of what Ducati does. They are just looking to cover their asses incase they can't put together a competitive GP package. Since Biaggi currently is the Big Hot Shit GP Guy on the WSB grid, Alstare knows they have a effective bargaining chip and are using it for all it's worth.

[/b]



Oh I agree 100% with that. But AMA / FIM was pressured by Japan to allow the 1000cc I4's and here we are.


Originally it was:

750 4 cylinders
900 3 cylinders
1000 2 cylinders

Ducati ran the 916 until the 750's got too fast, then they used their allowable 'cap space' and bumped up to 998/999. The Japanese on the other hand had a few options. Honda bent the rules and made V4 750's, low-number legal bikes, and won a few championships (RC30, RC45). Then they abandoned that course of action and left Superbike racing until the RC51 with which they won with as well.

Kawi, Suzuki, and Yamaha got tired of 750's as a class in general once sales of those bikes slowed down. The everyday consumer either bought 600's or 1000's and 750 sales slowly died off. Hence... the Big Four wanted to race 1000 I4's so they could sell them.

And here we are.

Don't point your finger at Ducati, they are a tiny company who sold 4500 bikes in the USA in 2004. Take a gander over at the Big Four who think Joe Neighbor should buy a 155HP stock streetbike.

Besides the RC51, anyone else remember Suzuki's attempt at a vtwin racebike, the TLR1000? Suzuki at one point had 4 factory riders in the AMA, two racing the GSXR750, and two racing the TLR1000, all in the Superbike class! That was amazing to watch. The bike sucked however and they quickly abandoned that strategy, bored and stroked the 750 motor, and introduced the class changing GSXR1000.


and lastly

Dennis Noyes, you so crazy! *click link below*
SPEEDtv.com | World Superbike | WSBK: Ducati Threatens to Quit Unless 1198 Allowed (Part I) | by Dennis Noyes | The latest headlines from FIM World Superbike | Bayliss, Corser, Haga, Toseland, Barros, Pitt, Lanzi, Xaus, Abe, Walker, Ducati, Suzuki, Y

+1

[Doc]

Ducati is a twin, Like Harley it should remain a Twin. I wouldn't want Ducati to make an I4 it would lose it's "mistique"

GSXR 1000 $12000
Ducati 1098 $15000
Honda 1000rr $12000
Kawasaki ZX10R $11500

I don't think the extra $3000 is gonna stop many people who want a Ducati.

[highsider]

Ducati is a twin, Like Harley it should remain a Twin. I wouldn't want Ducati to make an I4 it would lose it's "mistique"

GSXR 1000 $12000
Ducati 1098 $15000
Honda 1000rr $12000
Kawasaki ZX10R $11500

I don't think the extra $3000 is gonna stop many people who want a Ducati.

Fuck mystique. Keep winning races, keep selling bikes.

[Doc]

so lets make it "fair" and take traction control away so Ducati can keep using it's torque to squirt outta the corners.

[KillBill]

This is what Ducati is gonna say to all of the Jap mfrs




In their dreams

[old timer]

" I think a Ruckus with RC51 fairings could be pretty cool "...


BLASPHEMY...

[ZX-12R]

I'm amused by the fact that Ducatti is finally making a production engine with about equal horsepower to a 17 year old ZX-11.

[elwood206]

As a consumer and not a racer, Im not for any rule bending that doesnt drive new/better technology down to the consumer level bike. I might be alone in this, but I like watching the bike races for the competing bike technology as much as the competing riders. Id hate to see the bikes that are better built lose because their competition refuses/cant build an equivalent machine, but like everything else the best answer is a balance. I think it would be unfortunate if bike racing starts sliding towards nascar-esque technology limitations to limit the field to the least competitive machine.

[OreoGaborio]

A V2 can not put out the same power as an I4 of the same displacment. If you think Ducati shouldn't get a displacment advantage then I'd like to see you shorten up the stroke of an SV650 to 600cc's and go race SuperSport.

I agree w/ Paul & Alex. V2's should be allowed a displacment advantage even if it's just 10-15%. It would be much better for the sport than enforcing an equal displacment rule, basically giving the Big 4 more of an edge, who seem have been on the verge of having a monopoly on superbike & supersport racing for a little while now.

[Karaya One]

Ducati gets their way, and then we have the Ducati Cup again like in the late 1990's...

Yamaha, Honda and Suzuki will always race and sell their 1000's in the domestic series. WSB is just icing on the cake. They don't need it to survive.

The FIA should think before they pull the trigger on this....

[Doc]

Whatever they can do to make it fair and competative for ALL teams I am for it, Let the riders skill decide.

[Rye]

This is a ridiculous debate. Ducati should absolutely NOT get a break. If your a real fan of WSBK, and moto for that matter, you would have also noted that Ducati has won 14 of the last 16 WSBK champioships. GIVE ME A BREAK! (actually isn't that Ducati's motto?). Fuckin cheat bikes.

[Paul_E_D]

I guess I'm not a fan. LOL! I've raced in mixed CC classes for years. Bikes have certain advantages and disadvantages. I would have to say that the Duc is at an inherent disadvantage to the fours. It's rather suprising that they have won so much in WSB. They have used the tuning allowances to their gain, but they have hired the best riders, and clearly, they know how to operate a race team. If it were that easy to go out and beat the fours through "rules" then why hasn't Aprilia, or Suzuki, or even Honda won on twins more?

[Rye]

C'mon Paul...think about it. They win because they get the advantage. 5,6,7 wins...you've done well...but 90% of the wins since 1990, that's not just riders and team.

[TLRMan]

Ducati's GP bike is a V4 like Suzuki and Honda.

It's one manufacturer now, but with a rules change, others would be more likely to join. How about KTM with their new twin? Give them reason to believe they can compete and maybe they'll build a bike.

Ducati needs to sell bikes, and they can't compete DIRECTLY with the big four, so they make a different product. Their sales are tied to heritage and uniqueness, not just numbers.

Honda runs a V5...
As for all this BS..there should be a displacement/weight break.
This would really put a damper on the v-twins though. So what we have here is plain old money making marketing. silly that Ducati didn't check on the rules, or do you think a little palm greasing would get them in anyway?

But unlike Moto GP bikes, the WSB/AMA bikes have to be available to the public in so many numbers to be accepted. This is why likes of the TLR, RC51, Kaw 600rr, come out as a homologation , with race parts available.

[Doc]

All the Ducati haters are just jealous.

[Honclfibr]

The japanese manufacturers have won races by manufacturing bikes that benefitted from the rules set by the racing bodies. When the rules favored twins, they made twins. Now that the rules favor inline fours, they're concentrating their development on inline fours.

Ducati should have seen the winds of change and made a new bike designed around an I4 engine if they wanted to stay competitive. Instead, they ignored the changes and built a bike around their "philosophy" of twins. And now they're throwing a hissy fit threatening to leave the sport if the rules aren't changed to fit the bike they designed. Sucks to be them.

[a13x]

Did everyone fail to read the part about the Japanese, all four of them, making the same stink about their 750's not being competitive and lobbied to race 1000cc I4's or they would depart?

Do none of you even look at the LRRS rulebook, like Ultralight Superbike, and see that different types of bikes having different allowances is completely NORMAL?

I like the part about Ducati needing to 'make better twins' and their engineers are asleep on the job. Hello.. Desmo valves anyone?

I'm glad these decisions aren't left up to Message Board Experts.

[a13x]

This is a ridiculous debate. Ducati should absolutely NOT get a break. If your a real fan of WSBK, and moto for that matter, you would have also noted that Ducati has won 14 of the last 16 WSBK champioships. GIVE ME A BREAK! (actually isn't that Ducati's motto?). Fuckin cheat bikes.

If you are a real fan of WSBK or Moto you'd have read much more on this and have made a better argument. Go reread Noyes and Oxley's thoughts among others.

[akira700]

Honda V5? That was last year with 1000cc. If you are talking Moto GP.
Now its a V4. Just lopped a cylinder off the 2006 engine.

This aint getting us anywhere. Stalemate!
Next argument:

Who going to win this, Ducati or the FIM?
(Is it the FIM that sanctions these races?)

Anyway can World Superbike afford to see Ducati walk?
Or can Ducati afford to sit out and miss all the exposure
that WSBK brings?

[a13x]

Ducati will be in WSBK and AMA next year. Least that's what my money is riding on.

[Honclfibr]

I like the part about Ducati needing to 'make better twins' and their engineers are asleep on the job. Hello.. Desmo valves anyone?

Do desmodromic valves really provide any sort of technical advantage over modern spring-closure valves? I don't see any evidence that this is the case. 600cc spring-closure engines rev higher than any ducati desmo engine on the planet without any valve float issues. What is the reason for desmo valves in a powerplant at this point other than "philosophical" reasons?

[a13x]

Do desmodromic valves really provide any sort of technical advantage over modern spring-closure valves? I don't see any evidence that this is the case. 600cc spring-closure engines rev higher than any ducati desmo engine on the planet without any valve float issues. What is the reason for desmo valves in a powerplant at this point other than "philosophical" reasons?

I've been told otherwise. Desmo valves, so I was told, can rev higher than spring valves. Ducati has a bunch of the stuff patented and Ferrari is trying to get a 'loan' on the technology to adapt it to their F1 engines, allowing even higher revs.


I also just looked this up
---------------
The Desmodromic valve system was designed and developed by Dr. Fabio Taglioni.
A Desmodromic valve system is one where the engine valves are both opened and closed by a cam. Among the advantages of a desmo engine are that there are no heavy power robbing springs used to close the valves, better protection for the engine if it is over revved, and better performance and/or overall efficiency.

If in a racing application a normal valve spring engine had an upper rpm limit of about 10,000 rpm, that same engine design when equipped with a Desmodromic valve system would capable of 15,000 rpm, and much more power.

Ducati and Mercedes are two major companies who have used the Desmodromic system in racing engines. Currently only Ducati produces a production machine employing a Desmodromic valve system.

The disadvantage of the Desmodromic valve system is its complexity and cost. And while the overall efficiency possible in a Desmodromic design can not be achieved in current applications it's main advantage, greater power output, can be achieved at less expense by using four or more valves per cylinder.

[TheIglu]

It's for the clack clack sound.

Clutch too.

[Punjistick]

as I understand it, desmo valves provide more precise control in the opening/closing action of the valves. As to what kind of performance this provides over springs I have no idea.