HD Introducing water cooled bikes on Labor Day

[Stromper]

It a Harley the more it looks like a parade float the better

[SVRACER01]

Wirelessly posted (GS3)

New bikes were announced last weekend. We had 7 by Wed. They look awesome. HD did a great job. The radiators are very discreet since the bikes already had the fairings on the crash bars. Cooling around the exhaust port is all that was needed. It allowed HD to up the compression and change the cam for more power. Really the only thing HD didn't change was the the frame and the trans. They put their hands on everything else. Bluetooth /touchscreen /GPS radio, new saddlebags, new tourpack, new hand controls, new fairing, new LED lights all around linked ABS.
One of my techs has been doing this for almost 30years and he says its the best one he's ever ridden.
If you're not impressed then you're just not informed.
HD put the Road Glide on hiatus this year for a redesign. HD did such a great job with the Electra glide models that I'm looking forward to the new RG.

[SVRACER01]

Wirelessly posted (GS3)

I'll say it again. HD's CURRENT lineup kind of appeals to me.

Me, I'd ask them to improve their frames. But I am sure the EPA does not see it that way.

Touring bikes got all new frames about 5 years ago. That was the last BIG change HD did. That's when the touring bikes all went to 180 rear tires.

[SVRACER01]

Wirelessly posted (GS3)

Great, one more thing to leak on the ground!

Really? This coming from you and your current bike?
Move along.

[Chippertheripper]

Wirelessly posted (GS3)



Really? This coming from you and your current bike?
Move along.

Need a hug?

[R7]

Wirelessly posted (GS3)



Really? This coming from you and your current bike?
Move along.

And I've made it pretty clear that I will never buy an Italian bike again

[nhbubba]

Touring bikes got all new frames about 5 years ago. That was the last BIG change HD did. That's when the touring bikes all went to 180 rear tires.

Really? But they are still entirely steel? Coworker has a very new (2013 IIRC) RG and its frame sure looks like the same one my dad's 89 had.. Shows what I know.

Kind of a double edged sword. On one hand they keep the bikes looking more or less the same for that retro/classic styling look. On the other nobody can tell when they make improvements.


Speaking of improvements. How much power does this water cooling and upped compression bring to the table?

[oVTo]

Wirelessly posted (GS3)

Touring bikes got all new frames about 5 years ago. That was the last BIG change HD did. That's when the touring bikes all went to 180 rear tires.

IIRC, the frame change was done to address a weaving issue at highway speed on the touring bikes. It's been a while and I don't pay close attention to the HD product line. Is that right and have the complaints gone away?


Compression changed from 9.6:1 to 9.7:1, torque increased from 100 to 104.7, mpg and recommended fuel (91 or higher) are unchanged. They did a nice job hiding the radiators. Basically they got a slight bump in power and improved emissions with a minimal cost and complexity increase. The Faithful may panic, but this is really more of an incremental change than a revolutionary one.

[stoinkythepig]

Compression changed from 9.6:1 to 9.7:1, torque increased from 100 to 104.7, mpg and recommended fuel (91 or higher) are unchanged. They did a nice job hiding the radiators. Basically they got a slight bump in power and improved emissions with a minimal cost and complexity increase. The Faithful may panic, but this is really more of an incremental change than a revolutionary one.

It's pretty obvious that the main reason for the change was emissions. A 4.7% increase in torque is not worth all that effort.

[SVRACER01]

Need a hug?

nope, just poking Mark a little

Really? But they are still entirely steel? Coworker has a very new (2013 IIRC) RG and its frame sure looks like the same one my dad's 89 had.. Shows what I know.

Speaking of improvements. How much power does this water cooling and upped compression bring to the table?

frames are totally different. tough to see with the tank on.
heres some numbers (these are rough numbers)
2013 air cooled 103 (HP/TQ) 79/95
2014 air cooled 103 84/100
2014 twin cooled 103 89/105

IIRC, the frame change was done to address a weaving issue at highway speed on the touring bikes. It's been a while and I don't pay close attention to the HD product line. Is that right and have the complaints gone away?


Compression changed from 9.6:1 to 9.7:1, torque increased from 100 to 104.7, mpg and recommended fuel (91 or higher) are unchanged. They did a nice job hiding the radiators. Basically they got a slight bump in power and improved emissions with a minimal cost and complexity increase. The Faithful may panic, but this is really more of an incremental change than a revolutionary one.

yes the frame solved handling issues.
and while your 9.6 to 9.7 is correct, the water cooled bikes were bumped to 10:1

It's pretty obvious that the main reason for the change was emissions. A 4.7% increase in torque is not worth all that effort.

yes and no. the water cooled bikes are actually up 10+% in both HP and TQ vs the air cooled of last year.
back in the day before emissions, one could dump more fuel into the combustion chamber and use the fuel to "cool" the exhaust valve. this of course sent a bunch of unused fuel out the other end and killed all the polar bears.
with the liquid cooling, they can put more air in to go with that fuel and not have to worry about burning up a valve. not to mention the ability to put in a bigger cam to accomplish the increase of A/F provides more power
its a small step in the grand world of motorcycling, but its huge for HD.

[CBR929RE]

It's pretty obvious that the main reason for the change was emissions. A 4.7% increase in torque is not worth all that effort.

and if they cooled the cylinders where the heat is actually made they could make more power with better emissions and increased fuel economy. it would be a win for all involved except the purist snob.

[SVRACER01]

at this point, HD is doing what they HAVE to to keep the feds happy. most HD owners dont really care about power. thats not what HDs are about. they only care if they are faster than other HDs. comparing an HD to really anything else is like comparing apples to bunt cake.

realistically, most of the heat is made in the head. ya know....where the explosions all happen

[TheIglu]

No, controlled burns. Explosions happen with detonation. I guess your statement is correct for a lot of the poorly tuned HD's with the huge MEGACHARGER hanging off the sides though!

[CBR929RE]

at this point, HD is doing what they HAVE to to keep the feds happy. most HD owners dont really care about power. thats not what HDs are about. they only care if they are faster than other HDs. comparing an HD to really anything else is like comparing apples to bunt cake.

realistically, most of the heat is made in the head. ya know....where the explosions all happen

so is that why so many of them like to put S&S motors in, or cam swaps or other power adders?

they care about power just like the rest of us.

[oVTo]

nope, just poking Mark a little


frames are totally different. tough to see with the tank on.
heres some numbers (these are rough numbers)
2013 air cooled 103 (HP/TQ) 79/95
2014 air cooled 103 84/100
2014 twin cooled 103 89/105

yes the frame solved handling issues.
and while your 9.6 to 9.7 is correct, the water cooled bikes were bumped to 10:1

yes and no. the water cooled bikes are actually up 10+% in both HP and TQ vs the air cooled of last year.
back in the day before emissions, one could dump more fuel into the combustion chamber and use the fuel to "cool" the exhaust valve. this of course sent a bunch of unused fuel out the other end and killed all the polar bears.
with the liquid cooling, they can put more air in to go with that fuel and not have to worry about burning up a valve. not to mention the ability to put in a bigger cam to accomplish the increase of A/F provides more power
its a small step in the grand world of motorcycling, but its huge for HD.

I guess it depends on whether the comparison is between 2013 Vs. 2014 or air cooled Vs. twin cooled. Not a big deal either way.

A 5% or 10% difference might not be a major selling point for many HD customers, but it could have been a problem if they added water and kept power flat or lost any. I wonder if Indian's 111 will start a power war. Probably not, but the HD/Polaris battle should be interesting over the next few years.

at this point, HD is doing what they HAVE to to keep the feds happy. most HD owners dont really care about power. thats not what HDs are about. they only care if they are faster than other HDs. comparing an HD to really anything else is like comparing apples to bunt cake.

realistically, most of the heat is made in the head. ya know....where the explosions all happen

I don't get the "keep the feds happy" comment. I only did a quick check, but it looked like US motorcycle emissions haven't changed since 2004 and I couldn't find any proposed changes. On the other hand, the Euro 4 standards start in 2016, and that's about 15% of HD sales (or was before their economy tanked). Are there US motorcycle emissions changes in the works too?

[SVRACER01]

No, controlled burns. Explosions happen with detonation. I guess your statement is correct for a lot of the poorly tuned HD's with the huge MEGACHARGER hanging off the sides though!

ill meet you in the middle with controlled explosion. either way, the head and the piston crown is where all the fire and heat is

so is that why so many of them like to put S&S motors in, or cam swaps or other power adders?

they care about power just like the rest of us.

its a very very low percentage of HD owners that would event think about putting an S&S motor in their bike. those engines go in either custom bikes (ex:choppers) or old bikes (ex: shovelhead era or older) that parts getting harder to find.
i have very few customers that want to be the fastest thing out there.
typical upgrades are the same as any sportbike. exhaust, air cleaner and fueling. the next common thing is cams ,because they are (relatively) easy to do, and big bore kits. big bore kits are common when there is a bump in engine from the factory. example: when HD came out the 96" motor, guys with 88" put in 95" big bore kits. 96" guys put in 103" motors. its also another (relatively) easy upgrade.
i reiterate, HD owners that care about HP only care if its faster than their buddies HD. not if its faster than a VTX or Vstar

[SVRACER01]

I don't get the "keep the feds happy" comment. I only did a quick check, but it looked like US motorcycle emissions haven't changed since 2004 and I couldn't find any proposed changes. On the other hand, the Euro 4 standards start in 2016, and that's about 15% of HD sales (or was before their economy tanked). Are there US motorcycle emissions changes in the works too?

im not fluent in motorcycle emissions, but i know that when i lived in AZ i had to get my bike tested as im sure everyone in CA has to as well. CA usually sets the standard that the feds eventually follow. what are the emission standards in CA? i have no idea. i do know that for quite some time manufacturers were making 2 different models of bike. 1 for CA and one for everyone else. the CA model having more emissions crap on it. i can only imagine that its easier/cheaper to make 1 bike for everyone. bikes are now coming with catalytic converters on them. why? theres no federal mandate for it like cars. either manufacturers know something we dont about emission regs coming down the line, or they are already in place in some markets.

[SRTie4k]

at this point, HD is doing what they HAVE to to keep the feds happy. most HD owners dont really care about power. thats not what HDs are about. they only care if they are faster than other HDs. comparing an HD to really anything else is like comparing apples to bunt cake.

realistically, most of the heat is made in the head. ya know....where the explosions all happen

It's funny you say that, because I remember going to Epping a few years back, and one of the "expositions" included a bunch of different HD models and their owners making passes down the drag strip. Apparently they were part of an elite group in the HD scene...the Harley-Davidson 100 Horsepower Club. I couldn't help but laugh that 100HP was a Harley enthusiast's crowning achievement.

What's even more funny is the amount of hits you get if you Google it.

[SRTie4k]

im not fluent in motorcycle emissions, but i know that when i lived in AZ i had to get my bike tested as im sure everyone in CA has to as well. CA usually sets the standard that the feds eventually follow. what are the emission standards in CA? i have no idea. i do know that for quite some time manufacturers were making 2 different models of bike. 1 for CA and one for everyone else. the CA model having more emissions crap on it. i can only imagine that its easier/cheaper to make 1 bike for everyone. bikes are now coming with catalytic converters on them. why? theres no federal mandate for it like cars. either manufacturers know something we dont about emission regs coming down the line, or they are already in place in some markets.

There is no federal mandate on requiring catalytic converters, but there are EPA laws requiring so many PPM of emissions that are allowed to be emitted by production motorcycles. The last change to the regs was in 2010 I believe. Manufacturers use cats because its easier to control those emissions without leaning out the bike so much that the valves get burned to a crisp.

Read here for more info:
http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/313/15...-Examined.aspx

[SVRACER01]

It's funny you say that, because I remember going to Epping a few years back, and one of the "expositions" included a bunch of different HD models and their owners making passes down the drag strip. Apparently they were part of an elite group in the HD scene...the Harley-Davidson 100 Horsepower Club. I couldn't help but laugh that 100HP was a Harley enthusiast's crowning achievement.

What's even more funny is the amount of hits you get if you Google it.

theres probably just as many 200mph club busa owners

100 hp isnt all that hard. 103" big bore kit with some 255 cams, super tuner and a full exhaust. DONE.
theres a board at SHD that lists bikes that have gone on the dyno that make 100+ hp. some are kinda funny. youll see 113" motor making less power than a properly built 103" motor

[gixxer72]

It's funny you say that, because I remember going to Epping a few years back, and one of the "expositions" included a bunch of different HD models and their owners making passes down the drag strip. Apparently they were part of an elite group in the HD scene...the Harley-Davidson 100 Horsepower Club. I couldn't help but laugh that 100HP was a Harley enthusiast's crowning achievement.

What's even more funny is the amount of hits you get if you Google it.

So did you get out on the track with your 100+ HP TL and school them or just laugh at them?
What's funny was when my buddy on his FXDX fucking smoked a group of sport bikes up Cadillac Mtn. Yes he ground down some hard parts to do it, but he was on top of the mountain before the majority of the group we were in.

[Kurlon]

Whatever Scott Setino has in his XR is sick, that's all I'll say on the matter.

[SVRACER01]

Wirelessly posted (GS3)

I've heard the fxdx is a very good handling bike. Its a shame HD went and uglied it up this year

[SRTie4k]

So did you get out on the track with your 100+ HP TL and school them or just laugh at them?
What's funny was when my buddy on his FXDX fucking smoked a group of sport bikes up Cadillac Mtn. Yes he ground down some hard parts to do it, but he was on top of the mountain before the majority of the group we were in.

Nah, was only there to spectate. It was a special event.

Besides, I don't think a drag race on a 100HP, 800lb, 14 second bike vs a 125HP, 400lb, 11-12 second bike would be very fair. I'd give it a shot though.

[gixxer72]

Nah, was only there to spectate. It was a special event.

Besides, I don't think a drag race on a 100HP, 800lb, 14 second bike vs a 125HP, 400lb, 11-12 second bike would be very fair. I'd give it a shot though.

Maybe not in the 1/4, you might get surprised in the 1/8th though...sounds like a nasty TL. My TLR did not make anywhere near 125 HP, and wet it was a lot closer to 500lbs. I miss the sound, and the ability to stuff several beers under the seat hump.