msf class sizes(sitting her watching one)

[WordTooYoMamma]

Wirelessly posted (Tilt: HTC-8900/1.2 Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows CE; IEMobile 7.11) UP.Link/6.3.1.20.0)

Im watching all 12 of these eager learners go around the course doing the box test and the conclusion I've come up with is the classes should probaly be smaller. The instructors (Gary and Dan) are doing the best they can to give information and guidance to the people that need it. Altho I feel by them doing that they are causing the other people that are in line to do the drill to lose precious practice time. Not to put anyone down but this class has about 4 people that need the direct attention of the instructors at all time and they are getting all the tlc they need but if there were only 8 people I think they could be broken better into groups of people. I know its not cost effective to lessen clas size but its 8 in the morning and I don't care.
Discuss

[Doc]

We get that problem all the time. Alot of waiting in line. BUT it gives the others time to rest (they need it even if they don't think they do) and they should be paying attention to the advice given to others (even if they don't think they need to)

[csmutty]

I ran a class of 7 today and the class size is great. On a modified range the max number of students on the range is less than a full size. On the range in Killingly that I taught at today the max is 8, and in Norwich, the other one I teach at the max class size is 10. It makes the whole process a lot easier. The only downside to it is that the parking lot is smaller and therefore it is harder to get your speed up for exercises that may be better with more speed.

[jcbell1007]

MSF does have classes/curriculums with a better rider to ridercoach ratio, but that comes at a price.

I understand where you are coming from though.

[toocrazy2yoo]

The class last week I went to was 26 in the Friday evening class. Then, they split us into 13 each class, morning, and then afternoon. I've been riding 28 years and around 150,000 miles, my being there was a licensing requirement since I let my "M" lapse. I didn't believe in half what they had to say. The bikes were 250 Rebels (I'm 6'1", I was folded up on the thing like a praying mantis). The handle bars were all over my kneecaps until I figured out to spread my knees even wider than the handlebars for the figure-8 box test. By the end of the thing, the original 26 were paired down to a passing class of 19 between the two sessions. All due respect to Doc and everyone else that teaches MSF, an awful lot is a joke, but I kept my mouth shut, gave em what they wanted to get my ticket, and didn't undermine the instructors with the other students during breaks. I realize they have to teach rear brake, per the other thread, but other techniques they teach are somewhat ineffective and hard on the bike. But overall, better a newb takes the basic MSF than not. I'll givem em that much. And, it's good of the peeps that teach MSF to do the job, because I know they ain't paying much for folks to do it.

[McBiggity]

an awful lot is a joke

care to elaborate?

[Jaynnus]

alot can be learned by the students while watching their peers mistakes and successes. It also gives them time to relax and take in the task at hand.

There are of course those that need and will benefit from a one and one situation for which is available for a price.

The MSF ratio is 6:1 student to instructor and has a high success rate, it can't be all that bad!

[Doc]

The class last week I went to was 26 in the Friday evening class. Then, they split us into 13 each class, morning, and then afternoon. I've been riding 28 years and around 150,000 miles, my being there was a licensing requirement since I let my "M" lapse. I didn't believe in half what they had to say. The bikes were 250 Rebels (I'm 6'1", I was folded up on the thing like a praying mantis). The handle bars were all over my kneecaps until I figured out to spread my knees even wider than the handlebars for the figure-8 box test. By the end of the thing, the original 26 were paired down to a passing class of 19 between the two sessions. All due respect to Doc and everyone else that teaches MSF, an awful lot is a joke, but I kept my mouth shut, gave em what they wanted to get my ticket, and didn't undermine the instructors with the other students during breaks. I realize they have to teach rear brake, per the other thread, but other techniques they teach are somewhat ineffective and hard on the bike. But overall, better a newb takes the basic MSF than not. I'll givem em that much. And, it's good of the peeps that teach MSF to do the job, because I know they ain't paying much for folks to do it.

Why didn't you take the ERC?

As for the bike, why did you pick that one? (We let our students pick).

I am glad you didn't undermine the instructors, It shows class and maturity. I would like to know what you think is a joke in the class for my own education to try and make my classes better. I would also like to know what you think is ineffective and hard on the bikes?

I can't change MSF curriculum but being aware of what students might find a "joke" would be a good thing. (You know my stance on using both brakes

[Degsy]

The class last week I went to was 26 in the Friday evening class. Then, they split us into 13 each class, morning, and then afternoon. I've been riding 28 years and around 150,000 miles, my being there was a licensing requirement since I let my "M" lapse. I didn't believe in half what they had to say. The bikes were 250 Rebels (I'm 6'1", I was folded up on the thing like a praying mantis). The handle bars were all over my kneecaps until I figured out to spread my knees even wider than the handlebars for the figure-8 box test. By the end of the thing, the original 26 were paired down to a passing class of 19 between the two sessions. All due respect to Doc and everyone else that teaches MSF, an awful lot is a joke, but I kept my mouth shut, gave em what they wanted to get my ticket, and didn't undermine the instructors with the other students during breaks. I realize they have to teach rear brake, per the other thread, but other techniques they teach are somewhat ineffective and hard on the bike. But overall, better a newb takes the basic MSF than not. I'll givem em that much. And, it's good of the peeps that teach MSF to do the job, because I know they ain't paying much for folks to do it.

Didn't learn much in your 28 years then did you? You haven't a clue if you think using the rear brake isn't right and you haven't a clue what we earn so why speculate?

I wish you were in my MSF class and I wish you had tried to undermine me in the class or on the range. I get at least one know-it-all per class and I cut 'em down in seconds. Usually the people who whine about the bike "not fitting them" are the people who are having problems getting through the exercises. It's always the bike's fault. The rebel's footpeg to bar distance is 27" You must have one hell of an inside leg meaurement if that's your feet to knee length. You're either 7'3" or full of shit. My guess is the latter.

[Degsy]

Why didn't you take the ERC?

As for the bike, why did you pick that one? (We let our students pick).

I am glad you didn't undermine the instructors, It shows class and maturity. I would like to know what you think is a joke in the class for my own education to try and make my classes better. I would also like to know what you think is ineffective and hard on the bikes?

I can't change MSF curriculum but being aware of what students might find a "joke" would be a good thing. (You know my stance on using both brakes

Doc, it doesn't matter what any of the student's think is a joke. You should teach the curriculum and that's it. Your job is to teach what the MSF says to teach, using innovative techniques if you can, but always the same basic classroom/range plans. If you listen to all the whiners on the BRC class over the years you'll end up teaching some strange crap. Luckily 99% of students take the class with the right attitude and learn a ton, but you always get one or two who know it already. BTW, what is your stance on both brakes?

I wonder if toocrazy is willing to share his range score with us? I guess over 10. Over the boundary in the u turn box for 3 points, 5' over distance in the braking and probably a deceleration in the cornering for a total of 13.

Just a guess.

[toocrazy2yoo]

Doc, it doesn't matter what any of the student's think is a joke. You should teach the curriculum and that's it. Your job is to teach what the MSF says to teach, using innovative techniques if you can, but always the same basic classroom/range plans. If you listen to all the whiners on the BRC class over the years you'll end up teaching some strange crap. Luckily 99% of students take the class with the right attitude and learn a ton, but you always get one or two who know it already. BTW, what is your stance on both brakes?

I wonder if toocrazy is willing to share his range score with us? I guess over 10. Over the boundary in the u turn box for 3 points, 5' over distance in the braking and probably a deceleration in the cornering for a total of 13.

Just a guess.

You're an admin, Deggs, so this'll probably get me bounced, and so what? Between this and your other post, if this is how an admin does, it's ok, bounce me. But Deggs, did you have a couple of scotches last night? Look at YOU all angry and authoritative. Ooooh..

Not sure what ERC is, Doc, they run a BRC and an Advanced Rider Course in Virginia, or at least that's all DMV points you to. BRC is mandatory ahead of the Advanced Course where, in Virginia anyway, you bring your own bike. But for the record, I aced the written (big deal) and I lost five points on the 135 degree turn because I forgot to go through the motion of a stab at the rear brake going in. Aced the others, and the figure-8 box I turned the thing with 3 feet to spare in all dimensions. There were no other bikes available, a crashed dual purpose, a crashed 250 Ninja and a couple of GN250 Suzukis were all they had on the trailer besides the Rebels. And I didn't bitch to those guys out there. I accommodated their trash without a word. Their crashed, broken, shitty-shifting, mal-adjusted bent shit can Honda Rebel. And it was one of the bikes that crashed in the morning class. So clearly, Deggs, you don't know what you're talking about.

Furthermore, Doc and me agree about the ability to disagree on the rear brake. I'll use it when I have a passenger, if I had a cruiser I'd use it, and I trail rear brake if I'm in a turn too hot under power to save trying to roll off the gas coming off my apex if I need a line adjustment. But in ALL cases? Like a dead straight, hell-bent full-on stop NOW situation? I don't think so. I've got sticky tires, six-piston calipers, 320MM drilled rotors, and in a hard, progressive use of the front brake, the rear tire is off the ground or so light that the rear isn't worth it anyway. And no less an authority than Keith Code and his pals Eddie Lawson and Wayne Rainy agree with me, or rather, I agree with them, they said it first. Hmm, who to believe? Deggs and the MSF? Or folks of accomplishment? Who set YOU up as the insulting authority, Deggs? MSF? But that's how *I* ride. It works for me and my bikes. And plenty of others. I recognize that. That should dispense with the rear brake issue. You do what you want, you have no choice about what you teach, and you clearly don't know what you're talking about in any case, if you think your way fits all sizes, riders and bikes and situations.

End of class eval where they handed me the card, I respectfully let them know this stuff, and one of em agrees to an extent, and the other was respectful in his response. I wrote em a nice eval for their company, they teach novices what they can teach em in two lousy days, I just think it'd be a better move to teach novices good progressive use of the front brake and leave the rear for another day. Proof is, 6 bikes crashed in the braking exercise. In the emergency stop, they want you to cross the line, haul in clutch, both brakes, and at the stop, be in first gear. The extra use of the rear brake on top of all that, for these novices, was more attention than they had to spare and they crashed. Even for the ones that didn't crash, you're sending novices out into the world thinking (in spite of the 70/30 lip service BRC pays the issue in the written test) the two are equal and they just AREN'T. But they're gonna learn. It'll be on the street on their new bike, but they're gonna learn.

There's other stuff too, Deggs, but YOU sir, shouldn't even be MSF if you're that inflexible in thought about this stuff and then if anyone talks back to the format, however respectfully, they're automatically F.O.S. in your book. Your emotions override your sense of propriety, and as Doc said, I gave em what they wanted, didn't undermine them with the other kids and we all shook hands and went our separate ways. They didn't have a problem, so why do you?

So Deggs, in short, you DON'T know it all. Sad part is, you've bought the program lock, stock and barrel and don't give it another thought afterwards. And except for squid-shit on the street which I don't do, I'll put all my handling skills in any situation up against you and the MSF and ace all of it, including you. Now go sober up..

[csmutty]

LOL this one is great. I have had students that are much larger than 6'2 do the whole course on a rebel and have been totally fine and great riders. I also am curious what techniques were taught that were totally unnecessary. Oh I am betting that you couldn't believe that to initiate lean you actually press on the hand grip in the direction that you want to turn.

My guess is that he put a foot down in the box (3), did good on the swerve, was 3 feet over the max braking distance (3), and on the corner he did not use both brakes and was too slow (8). Which comes to a total of 14.

[csmutty]

You're an admin, Deggs, so this'll probably get me bounced, and so what? Between this and your other post, if this is how an admin does, it's ok, bounce me. But Deggs, did you have a couple of scotches last night? Look at YOU all angry and authoritative. Ooooh..

Not sure what ERC is, Doc, they run a BRC and an Advanced Rider Course in Virginia, or at least that's all DMV points you to. BRC is mandatory ahead of the Advanced Course where, in Virginia anyway, you bring your own bike. But for the record, I aced the written (big deal) and I lost five points on the 135 degree turn because I forgot to go through the motion of a stab at the rear brake going in. Aced the others, and the figure-8 box I turned the thing with 3 feet to spare in all dimensions. There were no other bikes available, a crashed dual purpose, a crashed 250 Ninja and a couple of GN250 Suzukis were all they had on the trailer besides the Rebels. And I didn't bitch to those guys out there. I accommodated their trash without a word. Their crashed, broken, shitty-shifting, mal-adjusted bent shit can Honda Rebel. And it was one of the bikes that crashed in the morning class. So clearly, Deggs, you don't know what you're talking about.

Furthermore, Doc and me agree about the ability to disagree on the rear brake. I'll use it when I have a passenger, if I had a cruiser I'd use it, and I trail rear brake if I'm in a turn too hot under power to save trying to roll off the gas coming off my apex if I need a line adjustment. But in ALL cases? Like a dead straight, hell-bent full-on stop NOW situation? I don't think so. I've got sticky tires, six-piston calipers, 320MM drilled rotors, and in a hard, progressive use of the front brake, the rear tire is off the ground or so light that the rear isn't worth it anyway. And no less an authority than Keith Code and his pals Eddie Lawson and Wayne Rainy agree with me, or rather, I agree with them, they said it first. Hmm, who to believe? Deggs and the MSF? Or folks of accomplishment? Who set YOU up as the insulting authority, Deggs? MSF? But that's how *I* ride. It works for me and my bikes. And plenty of others. I recognize that. That should dispense with the rear brake issue. You do what you want, you have no choice about what you teach, and you clearly don't know what you're talking about in any case, if you think your way fits all sizes, riders and bikes and situations.

End of class eval where they handed me the card, I respectfully let them know this stuff, and one of em agrees to an extent, and the other was respectful in his response. I wrote em a nice eval for their company, they teach novices what they can teach em in two lousy days, I just think it'd be a better move to teach novices good progressive use of the front brake and leave the rear for another day. Proof is, 6 bikes crashed in the braking exercise. In the emergency stop, they want you to cross the line, haul in clutch, both brakes, and at the stop, be in first gear. The extra use of the rear brake on top of all that, for these novices, was more attention than they had to spare and they crashed. Even for the ones that didn't crash, you're sending novices out into the world thinking (in spite of the 70/30 lip service BRC pays the issue in the written test) the two are equal and they just AREN'T. But they're gonna learn. It'll be on the street on their new bike, but they're gonna learn.

There's other stuff too, Deggs, but YOU sir, shouldn't even be MSF if you're that inflexible in thought about this stuff and then if anyone talks back to the format, however respectfully, they're automatically F.O.S. in your book. Your emotions override your sense of propriety, and as Doc said, I gave em what they wanted, didn't undermine them with the other kids and we all shook hands and went our separate ways. They didn't have a problem, so why do you?

So Deggs, in short, you DON'T know it all. Sad part is, you've bought the program lock, stock and barrel and don't give it another thought afterwards. And except for squid-shit on the street which I don't do, I'll put all my handling skills in any situation up against you and the MSF and ace all of it, including you. Now go sober up..

First of all never have I had someone crash or seen someone crash in the braking exercise or eval. If they do "crash" in that exercise it is a low speed tip over because their handlebars were not straight when they stopped. And yes, clutch, both brakes, and down shifting is going to be a challenge to some people at first. OH NO A CHALLENGE!?!? What are people going to do now? I WILL stay at the range through lunch if asked, or even show up early if someone is looking for remedial coaching. If you truly want to do well in this class some extra effort may need to be shown depending on the person.

Back to the braking issue. Do you think all novices are going to have brakes just like yours? Seems like you want this course to be custom tailored to you when it has to fit in all kinds of riders and non-riders. Are you really going to tell someone who rides a cruiser that they should not use their rear brake when stopping quickly in a straight line because their rear wheel will be too light which may cause the rear to skid? I just hope that "their company" does not take your evaluation of them too seriously.

So how do you think that this course should be taught then? What other techniques are inadequate? Seems like you are just still upset that you lost your M?

[Doc]

Doc, it doesn't matter what any of the student's think is a joke. You should teach the curriculum and that's it. Your job is to teach what the MSF says to teach, using innovative techniques if you can, but always the same basic classroom/range plans. If you listen to all the whiners on the BRC class over the years you'll end up teaching some strange crap. Luckily 99% of students take the class with the right attitude and learn a ton, but you always get one or two who know it already. BTW, what is your stance on both brakes?

I wonder if toocrazy is willing to share his range score with us? I guess over 10. Over the boundary in the u turn box for 3 points, 5' over distance in the braking and probably a deceleration in the cornering for a total of 13.

Just a guess.

Understood Degs.
Don't get me wrong. That is how I intend to continue to teach.
I was just trying to do a little after action review with the boy. Get him to discuss his side and try to explain the MSF side.

[Doc]

BTW, what is your stance on both brakes?

Both brakes are good!

[kb1]

toocrazy -- I know you're an opinionated guy, but Degsy knows what he's talking about...


I took the motorcycle safety course May 2008 and I would recommend it to anyone, some stuff is very basic, but it's very worth the time.

[Doc]

There were no other bikes available, a crashed dual purpose, a crashed 250 Ninja and a couple of GN250 Suzukis were all they had on the trailer besides the Rebels. And I didn't bitch to those guys out there. I accommodated their trash without a word.

And no less an authority than Keith Code and his pals Eddie Lawson and Wayne Rainy agree with me, or rather, I agree with them, they said it first.

Even for the ones that didn't crash, you're sending novices out into the world thinking (in spite of the 70/30 lip service BRC pays the issue in the written test) the two are equal and they just AREN'T. But they're gonna learn. It'll be on the street on their new bike, but they're gonna learn.

The ERC is the experienced rider course. You don't have to take the BRC prior to taking the ERC. (Not according to the MSF).

FYI, I took my ERC and lofted the rear wheel about 3 feet in the quick stop, the instructor asked me to try and modulate the front brake better.

Why didn't you pick the dual sport? It might have fit better. Some people can jump on ANY of the bikes and pass with flying colors. Some can't

You quote racers on braking... don't you think there is a difference between racers and noobs?

70/30 is not equal... How would anyone think it is?

[Jaynnus]

70/30 is not equal... How would anyone think it is?

Agreed.

Besides don't you think it is a good idea to have good habits and not 'forget' to use your rear brake in an emergency situation? Those extra feet of stopping distance could be all the difference in the world. As for the comments about crashing the bike on the emergency stop...Derek said it right it is usually a tip over either for the bars not being straight or for releasing the rear brake when it locks and that right there is a good skill to learn how to react if you get a rear or a front tire skid. If they can't do it at 15 mph, how will they make an emergency stop at street speeds?

My favorite are guys that are the same height as me and complain about the bike, it's this, it's that, it's the bike...blah blah blah. I just make sure to use their bike for the demo and say..'nope, I don't see a problem with the bike"

[OreoGaborio]

Wirelessly posted (Samsung Lube.... Er, Glyde: Mozilla/5.0 440x240 Samsung SCH-U940 NetFront/3.4)

Doc, it doesn't matter what any of the student's think is a joke. You should teach the curriculum and that's it. Your job is to teach what the MSF says to teach, using innovative techniques if you can, but always the same basic classroom/range plans. If you listen to all the whiners on the BRC class over the years you'll end up teaching some strange crap. Luckily 99% of students take the class with the right attitude and learn a ton, but you always get one or two who know it already. BTW, what is your stance on both brakes?

I wonder if toocrazy is willing to share his range score with us? I guess over 10. Over the boundary in the u turn box for 3 points, 5' over distance in the braking and probably a deceleration in the cornering for a total of 13.

Just a guess.

You're an admin, Deggs, so this'll probably get me bounced, and so what? Between this and your other post, if this is how an admin does, it's ok, bounce me. But Deggs, did you have a couple of scotches last night? Look at YOU all angry and authoritative. Ooooh..

Not sure what ERC is, Doc, they run a BRC and an Advanced Rider Course in Virginia, or at least that's all DMV points you to. BRC is mandatory ahead of the Advanced Course where, in Virginia anyway, you bring your own bike. But for the record, I aced the written (big deal) and I lost five points on the 135 degree turn because I forgot to go through the motion of a stab at the rear brake going in. Aced the others, and the figure-8 box I turned the thing with 3 feet to spare in all dimensions. There were no other bikes available, a crashed dual purpose, a crashed 250 Ninja and a couple of GN250 Suzukis were all they had on the trailer besides the Rebels. And I didn't bitch to those guys out there. I accommodated their trash without a word. Their crashed, broken, shitty-shifting, mal-adjusted bent shit can Honda Rebel. And it was one of the bikes that crashed in the morning class. So clearly, Deggs, you don't know what you're talking about.

Furthermore, Doc and me agree about the ability to disagree on the rear brake. I'll use it when I have a passenger, if I had a cruiser I'd use it, and I trail rear brake if I'm in a turn too hot under power to save trying to roll off the gas coming off my apex if I need a line adjustment. But in ALL cases? Like a dead straight, hell-bent full-on stop NOW situation? I don't think so. I've got sticky tires, six-piston calipers, 320MM drilled rotors, and in a hard, progressive use of the front brake, the rear tire is off the ground or so light that the rear isn't worth it anyway. And no less an authority than Keith Code and his pals Eddie Lawson and Wayne Rainy agree with me, or rather, I agree with them, they said it first. Hmm, who to believe? Deggs and the MSF? Or folks of accomplishment? Who set YOU up as the insulting authority, Deggs? MSF? But that's how *I* ride. It works for me and my bikes. And plenty of others. I recognize that. That should dispense with the rear brake issue. You do what you want, you have no choice about what you teach, and you clearly don't know what you're talking about in any case, if you think your way fits all sizes, riders and bikes and situations.

End of class eval where they handed me the card, I respectfully let them know this stuff, and one of em agrees to an extent, and the other was respectful in his response. I wrote em a nice eval for their company, they teach novices what they can teach em in two lousy days, I just think it'd be a better move to teach novices good progressive use of the front brake and leave the rear for another day. Proof is, 6 bikes crashed in the braking exercise. In the emergency stop, they want you to cross the line, haul in clutch, both brakes, and at the stop, be in first gear. The extra use of the rear brake on top of all that, for these novices, was more attention than they had to spare and they crashed. Even for the ones that didn't crash, you're sending novices out into the world thinking (in spite of the 70/30 lip service BRC pays the issue in the written test) the two are equal and they just AREN'T. But they're gonna learn. It'll be on the street on their new bike, but they're gonna learn.

There's other stuff too, Deggs, but YOU sir, shouldn't even be MSF if you're that inflexible in thought about this stuff and then if anyone talks back to the format, however respectfully, they're automatically F.O.S. in your book. Your emotions override your sense of propriety, and as Doc said, I gave em what they wanted, didn't undermine them with the other kids and we all shook hands and went our separate ways. They didn't have a problem, so why do you?

So Deggs, in short, you DON'T know it all. Sad part is, you've bought the program lock, stock and barrel and don't give it another thought afterwards. And except for squid-shit on the street which I don't do, I'll put all my handling skills in any situation up against you and the MSF and ace all of it, including you. Now go sober up..

Who shit in your cheerio's this morning? The course is designed to teach the widest spectrum of riders how to safely operate a motorcycle and I think it does a great job of that. Not everything it teaches is 100 percent correct for every bike design out there, but all of the techniques still apply to some degree. The course is not the be all end all of motorcycle education, it's up to the student to contine learning about THEIR bike and THEIR riding..... So stop acting like a friggin d-bag and go eat some more of that awesome lobster. Maybe it'll put you in a better mood.

[WordTooYoMamma]

Wirelessly posted (Tilt: HTC-8900/1.2 Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows CE; IEMobile 7.11) UP.Link/6.3.1.20.06.3.1.20.0)

I think you shit in his cheerios pete.

[OreoGaborio]

Wirelessly posted (Samsung Lube.... Er, Glyde: Mozilla/5.0 440x240 Samsung SCH-U940 NetFront/3.4)

With that attitude, I'd like to... But the guy scored lobster for Spence's party so I'll give him a pass even though he needs to learn some respect..... Degsy doesn't know what he's talking about? ''Yeah, right... Yeah fuckin' right... You don't like lighthouses? You suck.''

[Sheppo]

Don't FUCK with a man's Cheerios...

[Kurlon]

RE both brakes. Yup, if you're good enough to modulate the front brake to the point that you're just hovering that rear wheel as you haul your bike down, that's likely the best method for a straight line emergency stop.

What if it's not an emergency? Do you need to needlessly unweight the rear end by relying 100% on the front to get the job done when you can instead use slightly less front, toss in a lil rear, and have the bike be more stable and further from the wheel lock threshold? You also don't have to worry about the back trying to go to one side once it's unloaded.

I think THAT is a big part of why the MSF teaches new riders to use both brakes, as it's safer to get maximum braking out of a less experienced rider by having them use both than trying to teach them the balance point of a stoppie.

I'm finding I've picked up the bad habit of relying solely on the front when on the road since I've started racing. I used to use both brakes on the ST, and am trying to force myself back into that habit. Especially riding two up, eliminating some chassis rotation by dragging a lil rear makes for a happier pillion.

[Degsy]

Hey, I guess if you don't have the skill to modulate the front perfectly AND keep the rear straightlined and rear suspension settled with a 30% rear brake, then just use the front. You should know that you WILL take longer to come to a stop. You canna change the laws of physics, Captain.

Oh and Keith Code? 45% voodoo and 45% based on understood and accepted priciples and practices, with 10% of a mix thrown in just to be controversial. Name a top racer from the last 5 years (or even 10 years) who uses him.

Just my opinions, you understand.

[oVTo]

The class last week I went to was 26 in the Friday evening class. Then, they split us into 13 each class, morning, and then afternoon. I've been riding 28 years and around 150,000 miles, my being there was a licensing requirement since I let my "M" lapse. I didn't believe in half what they had to say. The bikes were 250 Rebels (I'm 6'1", I was folded up on the thing like a praying mantis). The handle bars were all over my kneecaps until I figured out to spread my knees even wider than the handlebars for the figure-8 box test. By the end of the thing, the original 26 were paired down to a passing class of 19 between the two sessions. All due respect to Doc and everyone else that teaches MSF, an awful lot is a joke, but I kept my mouth shut, gave em what they wanted to get my ticket, and didn't undermine the instructors with the other students during breaks. I realize they have to teach rear brake, per the other thread, but other techniques they teach are somewhat ineffective and hard on the bike. But overall, better a newb takes the basic MSF than not. I'll givem em that much. And, it's good of the peeps that teach MSF to do the job, because I know they ain't paying much for folks to do it.

One thing to keep in mind is the BRC is designed for beginning riders, especially those who have never even sat on a bike. That includes people who take to riding easily and those that need a bit more support. Some things in the program make sense for working on the range but will change as they advance on the street. For example, on the range we tell the students to cover the clutch but not the front brake. I'd hope most new riders would go from the range to riding in very light traffic where covering the front brake still isn't needed. Eventually, they may start riding in situations where a faster response is needed, so covering the front brake is necessary. But should we teach that as part of a beginner curriculum? Not in my opinion because the risk of a new rider over-reacting to a situation with too much front brake is greater than the risk of the delayed response due to not covering the brake. There's a few other examples of things that may seem odd to an experienced rider going through the BRC, but believe it or not, there are reasons behind the actions we teach in MSF.

Another RC recommended taking the Experienced (or Advanced) Rider Course instead of the BRC. In VA, the BRC is the only license-waiver course, so that wasn't an option. When this was brought this up in an earlier thread, I contacted some VA RCs and asked. It's too bad, this is a classic case of someone who would have gotten more value out of the ERC if that option was available.

I understand the Rebel complaint. It's unique to the Rebel, I've never had a problem with the Kawasaki or Suzuki cruiser-style trainers. I'm about 6'1" too (34" inseam) and had a hell of a time with the bars hitting my legs and restricting the full lock turn. The only exercise it impacted is the tight u-turns, and the solution was as you described, move your knees out enough to get the bars past them. But that's not a good riding posture. I think that if the handlebars were adjusted properly, this wouldn't be an issue. If bars adjustment is the cause, it would explain why others haven't had this same problem. It's also not an issue for shorter riders, so swapping bikes would have solved it as well.

Like Doc, I'm interested in learning what other techniques you thought were hard on the bikes and ineffective or a 'joke'. If you don't want to air it out on the list, feel free to PM me. It's always good to get different perspectives. It's likely that a number of things that seemed ridiculous to an experienced rider like you are important to help a total beginner take those first steps.