A newb looking for a bike

[Sheppo]

And no, all the reasons I stated that put people at risk of crashing a SS are NOT things that can just as easily happen on a 250/500. A 250/500 is FAR more forgiving of mistakes and hamfisted moves, which is exactly the point. Sheesh.

PhilB

but is that a fact? I am still waiting to see factual evidence.

[PhilB]

but is that a fact? I am still waiting to see factual evidence.

Yes, it's a fact. Ride one of each sometime. Are you really going to try to tell me that a 250 or 500 is not more forgiving than a 600 supersport?

PhilB

[PhilB]

OP, looking through, I see that you asked a couple questions that no one answered:

http://hudsonvalley.craigslist.org/mcy/2791942065.html I figure it'd be easy to work on, and it should be pretty light so maybe I should save up?

That might not be a bad choice, if you can get the title straightened out.

Just for reference what are high miles for a bike? I mean I can imagine some dumbass kid could probably screw a bike up over 2000 miles and a responsible daily driver could baby a bike but I have no clue. And any good programs for learning to ride on a track? I really want to learn how my bike will respond under more extreme conditions, and my dad races with the scca and he says it makes you a better driver.

It's all about the maintenance. There's no reason a properly maintained bike can't do as well for miles as a car. Like cars, they seem to need a few extra things at about 60K, so I'd be inclined to look for something not more than about 40K if maintained. And you're right, a squid can screw up a bike in very few miles through neglect and abuse.

I would also be wary of older bikes with too *few* miles -- that means a lot of time sitting and rotting. I tend to stay away from bikes that have averaged less than 2K per year.

PhilB

[MikeyZ]

I started on a 92 Suzuki Katana 600 that I got for $700.

Bike was GREAT to learn on. Enough power to keep yourself happy when you are learning, but not enough to kill yourself.

Wouldnt change anything about that bike, I loved it to learn on. Also EXTREMELY easy to work on.

[JohnnyV]

Wirelessly posted (Blackberry Tour: Mozilla/5.0 (BlackBerry; U; BlackBerry 9930; en-US) AppleWebKit/534.11+ (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/7.1.0.163 Mobile Safari/534.11+)

but is that a fact? I am still waiting to see factual evidence.

Yes, it's a fact. Ride one of each sometime. Are you really going to try to tell me that a 250 or 500 is not more forgiving than a 600 supersport?

PhilB

The argument was never about which is more forgiving. It is certainly agreed upon that a 250 or 500 is more forgiving than a supersport 600. That does not directly tie into whether or not a 250 or 500 is SAFER. How safe it is only corrolates to the rider.

Is a .38 special SAFER than a .44 magnum? No. Easier to shoot and learn on? Perhaps. Is the .44 mag going to injure the new shooter if he has an understanding of the weapon, how to handle and operate it, and has respect for it? No

[Sheppo]

Yes, it's a fact. Ride one of each sometime. Are you really going to try to tell me that a 250 or 500 is not more forgiving than a 600 supersport?

PhilB

You just don't get it. I asked for the FACTS the one's you claim to have.

Do I think a 500 is more forgiving, yes. Facts about it being safer I don't have them. Every one has an opinion.

About riding each, probably safe to say there isn't much I haven't ridden.

[csmutty]

Ok Phil. Let's try this angle. Which bike has a shorter stopping distance...

An R6 or an EX500?

Which bike would allow you to accelerate out of a possible accident more quickly?

An R6 or EX500?

Which bike has better suspension which might create a better contact patch, thus avoiding an accident?

An R6 or EX500?

Great. Sell it to a beginner. It's a great bike for that.
PhilB

Or it's just a great bike. You don't have to be a beginner to appreciate a 250...I rode it for this year and enjoyed it greatly. Although I probably have under 10,000 street miles still. So I should probably just ride that.

[imstuner]

I think it all boils down to the person. Just respect the power.

[Kazinator]

My first bike was my current bike, an F4i. I took my MSF course with only a couple of minutes saddle time and passed with flying colors.

Have ridden my bike over 11,000 miles over the past year and a few months. Never dumped it. Never got myself in trouble with it.

If you need to listen to complete strangers tell you what size bike to get, you probably shouldn't be riding yet.


And to the OP - go take the MSF course. Then decide.

[Kazinator]

I think it all boils down to the person. Just respect the power.

+1

[PhilB]

The argument was never about which is more forgiving. It is certainly agreed upon that a 250 or 500 is more forgiving than a supersport 600. That does not directly tie into whether or not a 250 or 500 is SAFER. How safe it is only corrolates to the rider.

Is a .38 special SAFER than a .44 magnum? No. Easier to shoot and learn on? Perhaps. Is the .44 mag going to injure the new shooter if he has an understanding of the weapon, how to handle and operate it, and has respect for it? No

You just don't get it. I asked for the FACTS the one's you claim to have.

Do I think a 500 is more forgiving, yes. Facts about it being safer I don't have them. Every one has an opinion.

About riding each, probably safe to say there isn't much I haven't ridden.

Ok Phil. Let's try this angle. Which bike has a shorter stopping distance...

An R6 or an EX500?

Which bike would allow you to accelerate out of a possible accident more quickly?

An R6 or EX500?

Which bike has better suspension which might create a better contact patch, thus avoiding an accident?

An R6 or EX500?

Right. What the term "more forgiving" MEANS is that it won't punish mistakes as badly, which MEANS safer, especially for those who might be prone to mistakes, like a new street rider.

By all your your logics, the best starter bike would be a GSXR1000. Why didn't you all recommend that for him?
=====
I'm done with this one. Flame away, spout irrationalities to your hearts' content, fly to the heights of illogic. Knock yourselves out.

PhilB

[Sheppo]

By all your your logics, the best starter bike would be a GSXR1000. Why didn't you all recommend that for him?
=====
I'm done with this one. Flame away, spout irrationalities to your hearts' content, fly to the heights of illogic. Knock yourselves out.

PhilB

actually it's not a bad idea. I much perfer a 1000 over a 600 on the street. I am not shifting as much to get into the power band. The torque of a 1000 is much better on the street than a 600.

[j4eric]

'Busa or bust. Ride in shorts and flip-flops.

this is actually where this thread is heading...

[imstuner]

actually it's not a bad idea. I much perfer a 1000 over a 600 on the street. I am not shifting as much to get into the power band. The torque of a 1000 is much better on the street than a 600.

Yup I like my r1 because I don't need to shift as much. I don't really go above 3rd gear around Boston.

[TheIglu]

Right. What the term "more forgiving" MEANS is that it won't punish mistakes as badly, which MEANS safer, especially for those who might be prone to mistakes, like a new street rider.

By all your your logics, the best starter bike would be a GSXR1000. Why didn't you all recommend that for him?
=====
I'm done with this one. Flame away, spout irrationalities to your hearts' content, fly to the heights of illogic. Knock yourselves out.

PhilB

It's not your message, it is your delivery.

[Doc]

Ok Phil. Let's try this angle. Which bike has a shorter stopping distance...

An R6 or an EX500?

Which bike would allow you to accelerate out of a possible accident more quickly?

An R6 or EX500?

Which bike has better suspension which might create a better contact patch, thus avoiding an accident?

An R6 or EX500?


Or it's just a great bike. You don't have to be a beginner to appreciate a 250...I rode it for this year and enjoyed it greatly. Although I probably have under 10,000 street miles still. So I should probably just ride that.

Which bike has a more sensitive throttle? Or does not take kindly to ham fisted inputs?

Phil... Bit of advice. Drop it, you are and arguing semantics with these guys.

[SVRACER01]

i think what we are all missing here is that Phil is a know-it-all so therefor NOTHING we say is either going to dissuade him or even be correct if it doesnt coincide with his ideals.

[Awesome]

i think what we are all missing here is that Phil is a know-it-all so therefor NOTHING we say is either going to dissuade him or even be correct if it doesnt coincide with his ideals.

Probably wasn't bullied enough.

[SVRACER01]

Phil, im not saying that i disagree with you that a 250/500 is a good way to start. there are many occasions that i suggest these very bikes to new people that have never ridden before. in fact both my room mates in AZ started on GS500s per my suggestion. i was merely giving the kid other options. options that I felt were viable because they were great learner bikes that make a little more power and may be good starter bikes for someone with some riding experience. i never said that what i say is gospel and should be followed to the letter, but unfortunately that is exactly how you present yourself. this "my way or the highway" attitude may fly in your house but it wont here. if you didnt agree with my statement you couldve either not said anything or simply say "i dont agree" but instead you flatly said that im "wrong". peoples opinions cant be wrong. making statements that are purely opinion and spouting off that they are "fact" is, simply put, dumb. youre right, if i said my opinion was the sky is green ,when its obviously blue, then i suppose you could tell me im wrong. you would have factual data to back that up. you could poll 100 people that would most likely tell you "yes its blue". you dont have said data to back up the claim that starting on 15 year old SS bike with lead do eminent death and dismemberment. im all but done arguing this subject with you. i hope you stick around and learn that we arent a bunch of idiots and that we actually know what we are talking about.

[TheIglu]

My buddy has a '96 GS500 he's looking to part with. Runs/rides mint. No cosmetic issues. Comes with a brand new spare rear BT45 since he ordered two by mistake. Needs nothing.

$1500

Perfect learner bike right there. He's ridden it for 3 years now.

[imstuner]

My buddy has a '96 GS500 he's looking to part with. Runs/rides mint. No cosmetic issues. Comes with a brand new spare rear BT45 since he ordered two by mistake. Needs nothing.

$1500

Perfect learner bike right there. He's ridden it for 3 years now.

My co-worker would be interested. I'll PM you

[PhilB]

OK, I'll respond to your flame, in an attempt to explain my M.O.

i think what we are all missing here is that Phil is a know-it-all so therefor NOTHING we say is either going to dissuade him or even be correct if it doesnt coincide with his ideals.

My mind can be changed. But you have to present a well-reasoned, logical, and rational argument to do so. Random statements, claims that facts are a matter of opinion, and going "Nuh Uh!" won't cut it. Unlike some here already, I haven't been calling names or attacking the messenger; I've been sticking to the topic and stating my rational case for my position.

Phil, im not saying that i disagree with you that a 250/500 is a good way to start. there are many occasions that i suggest these very bikes to new people that have never ridden before. in fact both my room mates in AZ started on GS500s per my suggestion. i was merely giving the kid other options. options that I felt were viable because they were great learner bikes that make a little more power and may be good starter bikes for someone with some riding experience. i never said that what i say is gospel and should be followed to the letter, but unfortunately that is exactly how you present yourself. this "my way or the highway" attitude may fly in your house but it wont here. if you didnt agree with my statement you couldve either not said anything or simply say "i dont agree" but instead you flatly said that im "wrong". peoples opinions cant be wrong. making statements that are purely opinion and spouting off that they are "fact" is, simply put, dumb. youre right, if i said my opinion was the sky is green ,when its obviously blue, then i suppose you could tell me im wrong. you would have factual data to back that up. you could poll 100 people that would most likely tell you "yes its blue". you dont have said data to back up the claim that starting on 15 year old SS bike with lead do eminent death and dismemberment. im all but done arguing this subject with you. i hope you stick around and learn that we arent a bunch of idiots and that we actually know what we are talking about.

I already explained why this argument isn't a pure matter of opinion; there are facts involved. I also NEVER said that starting on a 600 would definitely "lead do (sic) eminent (sic) death and dismemberment"; I said it affects the odds. You're sure not going to convince me my position is wrong when you don't understand my position and argue against things I didn't say.

I do plan to stick around. I never claimed that you are "a bunch of idiots"; I never even called any one person an idiot. I never said that y'all didn't know what you were talking about in general, or even about any person in specific. I argued *this* point, on its own merits, presenting a rational case based on facts. If that makes you [i]feel[i] like an idiot, that's not my problem, and not anything I ever accused you of. I don't think you're an idiot. I don't have any hard feelings about you. I think you are wrong about this one situation, and that's all I have argued.

PhilB

[Dukaki848]

Hahahaha easiest way to start arguments on a forum is to ask for everyones opinion.

[SVRACER01]

OK, I'll respond to your flame, in an attempt to explain my M.O.

My mind can be changed. But you have to present a well-reasoned, logical, and rational argument to do so. Random statements, claims that facts are a matter of opinion, and going "Nuh Uh!" won't cut it. Unlike some here already, I haven't been calling names or attacking the messenger; I've been sticking to the topic and stating my rational case for my position.

since it would be impossible to prove that more people get hurt or crash on SS then they do on a 250/500 there is NO factual statistical data to prove that you OR i are right or wrong. it all has to do with personal accountability. ive seen plenty of people crash and get hurt doing something stupid or just not having the experience on 250/500s as i have on 600 SS. is it easier to go fast on a 600? sure. but a 15+ year sport bike is no where near as twitchy as a newer one. i stand by my claim that an F2/F3 is a great learner bike because it doesnt make huge power, ergonomically friendly, very forgiving of being ham fisted or clutch dumb. i also agree with you that a 250/500 is a great starter bike but you cant use that as a blanket statement for EVERY new rider that enters the sport. it doesnt matter what bike youre on when crashing at 50mph.

I already explained why this argument isn't a pure matter of opinion; there are facts involved.

ive yet to see these facts. link? or are they just your facts?

I also NEVER said that starting on a 600 would definitely "lead do (sic) eminent (sic) death and dismemberment"; I said it affects the odds.

odds would require statistical data that youve yet to produce. most 250/500s go for cheap money because theve been crashed numerous times. im willing to bet its harder to find one that hasnt been crashed at least once than it is to find one thats never been crashed, at least one that had any mileage on it.

You're sure not going to convince me my position is wrong when you don't understand my position and argue against things I didn't say.

PhilB

heres where your wrong.....im not trying to convince you that your position is wrong. i agree with you to a point. i agree that 250/500s are great starter bikes, then i add to that by saying that "since you have some experience you could probably take into consideration these bikes as well". you dont agree with my suggestion. thats fine. that doesnt mean that im wrong. it just means that our opinions differ...which is also fine. im willing to agree to disagree, but you just keep telling me im wrong...which, again, is impossible.

[PhilB]

... that doesnt mean that im wrong. it just means that our opinions differ...which is also fine. im willing to agree to disagree, but you just keep telling me im wrong...which, again, is impossible.

Apparently we have a lack of agreement on what the word "opinion" means, and how that relates to the meanings of the words "facts", and "objective reality". Since those are basic concepts to discussing, well, pretty much anything, I guess it is pointless to continue.

PhilB