Anyone using Lithium Iron Battery?

[MUZ720]

I'd be looking at the bike and trying to determine why it's such a bastard to start in the first place?

Oh I have! And I am not one to just start throwing parts at a problem
Equivalent cranking amps size AGM is way to Lg. for my application!

[whynot]

Oh I have! And I am not one to just start throwing parts at a problem
Equivalent cranking amps size AGM is way to Lg. for my application!

Maybe I missed it ... but what bike? And what have you done so far to fix the cranking problem?

In the case of the Duc in this post, changing to heavy duty battery cables made a huge gigantic difference. Before that with the stock cables, I had scrupulously cleaned all starter circuit connections, battery terminals, "grounds", cleaned the switch ... everything. That helped a little. The heavy cables totally transformed starting. With stock cables, with a new Bikemaster AGM, the battery would be about drained by the time it started. With the heavy cables, it starts instantaneously, if not sooner.

Got the heavy cables (see below) from Michael Heth at https://motolectric.com/products/ele...rade_kits.html

... just my experience, may not apply to you [dunno]

Back to why I changed from AGM to Li -- to save weight.

===========================================

from MotoLectric:

Starting HICAP - High Capacity Oygen Free Copper DC Distribution Circuit
HICAP Overview Page HICAP Detail Page

The Problem
Bike is difficult to start, starts slow or not at all, sometimes fouls plugs. Takes multiple attempts to get it started. Rider has low confidence of bike starting.

The Cause
Underspec wire size plus brass or steel terminals throughout the starter circuit have created chokepoints to the current flow. Starter motor receives less current than it requires which necessitates long cranking times. The excess cranking depletes battery voltage below that required by the ignition system to start the bike. Multiple cranking events eventually allow the chemical reaction in the battery to create enough current to start the bike but battery is damaged by long discharge cycles.

The Bandaid
Install new or larger battery - bike starts well until excess resistance in starter circuit degrades new battery.

The Solution
Install a HICAP high current starter circuit that has the least possible resistance to current flow

HICAP - outboards and replaces the OEM starting circuit that is riddled with chokepoints that impede current flow.
Enables virtually any bike to start in 1 second (often less).
Pays for itself in reduced battery consumption and reduced starting system wear.
Why It Is the Best Solution: Bike starts almost immediately, (often in 1 second), life of entire starting system (battery, starter motor, solenoid, sprag clutch) is extended.
Why It Is The Best Deal: The HICAP effectively addresses the root problem (impedance to current flow), it is built overspec to provide many years of troublefree starting. Motolectric offers the state of the art in motorcycle electrical upgrades. Value of the bike is increased vs. the value of a Brand X or user installed upgrade.

[Garandman]

Ditto (big cables) on the notoriously hard-cranking Tiger 1050.

A stuck relay would drain the battery in 48 hours. All good now!

[Paul_E_D]

Well, in my EXPERIENCE, the shorais do start ducatis and the like easier. Getting the thing spinning quicker usually overcomes the need for longer cranking. That said, I think my Hyper could use this cable upgrade. How/where are people getting this? Are there bike specific kits, or DYI?

[jasnmar]

Well, in my EXPERIENCE, the shorais do start ducatis and the like easier. Getting the thing spinning quicker usually overcomes the need for longer cranking. That said, I think my Hyper could use this cable upgrade. How/where are people getting this? Are there bike specific kits, or DYI?

There was a link to Motolectric (for ducs https://motolectric.com/makes/ducati.html) in Whynot's post.
I suspect that with a crimper and some welding cable you could get part way to the kit, but the kits would make it easier (and probably be better than a DIY welding cable solution). After buying a decent crimper, probably not any more spendy.

[Garandman]

LiFeP04 batteries are 13.3-13.4V fully charged. So while the “pB equivalent” is misleading, they do crank well.

[whynot]

There was a link to Motolectric (for ducs https://motolectric.com/makes/ducati.html) in Whynot's post.
I suspect that with a crimper and some welding cable you could get part way to the kit, but the kits would make it easier (and probably be better than a DIY welding cable solution). After buying a decent crimper, probably not any more spendy.

Right

Read his detailed description of his cables -- https://motolectric.com/products/hicap.detail.html

There may be other cables on the market. From my experience with Motolectric, he builds to order I think, rather than shipping from inventory. Basically a one-man shop, ya know, the kind of business we all love to support.

... and testimonials -- https://motolectric.com/testimonials.html

[tls25rs]

DYI?

Is this some sort of Jedi speak for do it yourself? Do yourself it (spoken in Yoda's voice)

[Paul_E_D]

Correct, you are.

[Tas]

Full Spectum P4

[MUZ720]

replaced all cables. all of the charging system checks out, AGM starts the beast 13-1 compression in a struggle has issues if the Italian stalls
she's a needy bitch but a blast to ride!

[Kurlon]

Have you considered putting auto-decompressors in the heads?

[Kurlon]

The other alternative, if this is a race bike: Wire a 6v Lithium battery between the solenoid and starter, so the starter sees 18v instead of 12v. You'll be able to run a much smaller primary battery as well as you won't be relying on amps to get started.

[MUZ720]

The other alternative, if this is a race bike: Wire a 6v Lithium battery between the solenoid and starter, so the starter sees 18v instead of 12v. You'll be able to run a much smaller primary battery as well as you won't be relying on amps to get started.

Its a race bike.. if this battery fails to solve the issue I will see if i can find a place for the 6v not much extra space on the Ducati...
,

[Kurlon]

https://antigravitybatteries.com/pro...l-case/ag-401/ as the main,
https://antigravitybatteries.com/pro...age/ag-802-6v/ as the booster.

The Shorai is using a 5.83 x 2.60in foot print, 4.13in high.

The 12v AG batt is 4.25 x 1.25in, 3.75in high. The 6v AG batt is 4.25 x 2.25in, 3.75in high. Why it's thicker, I've no idea. You could go with two of the AG 12v units and fit them in the space of the Shorai with room to spare, 24v at the starter it's spin up hella quick. (It's what the snowbike guys are doing, which is where I got the idea from.) I'm going to keep digging around to see if I can find a smaller 6v unit than the AG. There are also 16v 'race' batts available, a single batt solution, you'd want to get a matching reg/rect and see if the ECU is 16v happy before going that route.

[number9]

The other alternative, if this is a race bike: Wire a 6v Lithium battery between the solenoid and starter, so the starter sees 18v instead of 12v. You'll be able to run a much smaller primary battery as well as you won't be relying on amps to get started.

I obviously don't race, but I'm surprised this won't kill your starter?

[Kurlon]

I obviously don't race, but I'm surprised this won't kill your starter?

It's situation dependent. You go from slow cranking for long durations and the heat buildup based damage / wear from it to short duration high speed cranking. On KTMs and their notoriously bad starters, it doesn't appear to radically speed up starter failure? But again, bad starters to start with so... they don't have a long life expectancy to begin with. On a race bike, the number of actual starts per year is WAY lower than say, a moderately ridden street bike...

Duc specifically, guessing large aircooled, Ducati PN 27040107A is $700ish. Aftermarket options are in the $75 to $250 range, I'd keep one in the toolbox. I'd also pull the starter at the end of the season to inspect, if the brushes aren't showing crazy wear, bearings not cooked, etc, let fly the volts! If wear is noticable, estimate season(s) to 50% and do preventative replacements as part of periodic maint.

[two-rocks]

We have LiFePo4 (lithium-iron) as a house bank in our boat, and a lithium-ion traction battery in our car (EV)...

All batteries need to balance the individual cells somehow for longevity, lead-acid batteries do this naturally with no separate system needed...all lithium batteries need to do this with a battery monitoring system (BMS). It's the BMS that offers the benefits and increases cost. It's the BMS that also limits the cranking amps based on it's build specifications and internal current limitations.

There are many benefits to LiFePo4, but for a motorcycle it's only the weight/space savings. The other lithium-ION technologies can be lighter and smaller (all laptops, phones, etc...), but they have charging drawbacks, not to mention fire hazards.

I haven't looked into motorcycle LiFePo4 yet, but I would run fast from false marketing as "pb equivalent". That's dumbed down junk. If the battery does not have a BMS, they will have a much shorter life - but if you need absolute weight savings for dirt, race, etc...good trade off?

I could go on for a while....the only analogy I've read about the lithium battery stuff was analogous to the wild west -buyer beware.

[Kurlon]

LiFePo4 will self balance in a motorcycle application as long as it gets enough run time between starts, same way a lead acid does. There is a nice looooooong AdvRider thread with some solid technical info and a lot of detailed testing that proves that out, I'll see if I can dig it up some time. My personal experience with a now 9yr old Ballistic 8 cell is I never had to balance it till year 6, and that was after a couple crashes, running it on a bike with no charging system so it was getting drawn down hard, the topped off by non-lithium aware Batt Tenders, and was drawn flat at least twice by accident, aka worst case scenario. I have a Ballistic batt charger (rebranded multi-chemistry multi-cell balancer) so I can check it's balance and that batt was never more than .05v out of balance till past it's expected life span. I now have one bad cell, my lithium chargers cut off before it self balances, Ballistic charger won't touch it 'cause that cell drops voltage too fast, might toss it on a Batt Tender and let it 'float' for a bit and see what happens for science.

[two-rocks]

Without access to individual cells, how do you balance? I'm not familiar with that battery...

You're correct that situations 'may' not require balancing, but it's a tap dance. Planning on adding them to the bikes, but for a motorcycle the added benefits are only weight savings (IMO)...or in a case like yours without a charging source - they make a perfect match...(Deep cycling, PSOC, quick charging, etc..)

[Kurlon]

The rough/dirty explanation is once a cell hits a certain charge level the cell voltage spikes, causing it to stop accepting current without a bump in charge voltage. For Shorais the magic voltage is roughly 13.8v, if your Reg/Rect caps the voltage off around 13.8v you'll never get a LiFePO4 fully charged, and likely will unbalance the batt. (See BMW F800s...) If your Reg/Rect allows up into the 14.5v range, as the cells hit that ramp down in current/spike in voltage, the higher voltage pushes the current past them to the lesser charged cells until they too ramp current down/voltage up. They naturally balance when allowed to see low to mid 14v. The spike in voltage as the charge approaches capacity also makes it more difficult to overcharge a LiFePO4 unless you get crazy with the charge voltage.

[01xj]

Is anyone using the BMSO1 charger for their Shorai? I just put one in the bike today. I'm so used to running everything on a trickle charger I can't get past not having a charger standing by for those cold weather snaps where the bike isn't moving for a month or more.

[Paul_E_D]

I haven't had to trickle charge a shorai in years. Bikes fire right up in the spring.

[01xj]

I haven't had to trickle charge a shorai in years. Bikes fire right up in the spring.

Any parasitic drain on them? Alarm systems or clocks?

[jimmycapp]

On mine I do. If I leave is all winter without disconnecting it ended up at 0v last spring. Used Paul's trick and hit it with a car charger for a few minutes and it's good as new for the season. I disconnected it this winter.