Track Day as substitute for Race weekend?

[lrrs_704]

I was talking to my father today and he believes that I am only endangering myself by going out on the track in race practices and races because I dont have the experience to keep myself on two wheels. His solution to this was that instead of signing up for the June 2-3 weekend I should do a track day to get more time and experience. I then tried to explain to him how most of my crashes occur either when being passed or passing in breaking zones, and I would not be able to do that in track days. His response was that I was either to do a track day or crash again, and not race for the end of the season for safety reasons. I didnt think too much of my crashes were in my control, but he believes they were and came to his decision accordingly.

I just wanted to know some peoples' opinion on the matter before we both decided.

[OreoGaborio]

Don't take this the wrong way, Big C.... but I think doing a couple track days would be an OUTSTANDING idea for ya, bro.

Not necessarily because you're a danger, but because it's a great place to get more track experience in a non-competative environment. It'll help teach to you how to make clean passes where there's no pressure to make the atempt stick. It'll also help teach you how to PLAN clean passes before you make them because of the rules that restrict passing in the "sketchy" areas.

I'll be at Tony's on July 23rd & 24th as well as Sept 18th & 19th working as a control rider. I'll also be signing up for the July 12th date to ride as a customer. Shoot Tony an email asking if it's cool for you to sign up for one of those dates, I'd love to ride w/ ya w/o the pressure of turning hot laps.

[xxdcmast]

I would say either track days or is possible the thursday practices. In my experience thursday practices are much less corwded than friday or some other track days.

[TTD]

Why have you crashed when being passed?

Why have you crashed when passing?

Can you "flip the switch" from racer to track day rider? (some racers simply can't)

[Honclfibr]

I like trackdays, now that I'm racing I use them to work on specific areas of the track that I want to get more speed through. The trick is not to try to turn a hot lap, if you get behind a slower rider just follow them until it's safe to pass or pit in and let them go by. There is so much track time during a track day compared to racing/practices or even the penguin school, you don't need to crank by every rider you see to get a lot out of it.

It's helped me greatly as I'm not the kind of rider who can just zone in on someone who's riding several seconds faster than me and start keeping up with them. I need to find the speed in the track myself before I end up in a race scenario. And it seems like I've seen an awful lot of people crash trying to knock multiple seconds off their laptimes by chasing a faster rider. Racing is teaching me to pass for position (something I'm still not good at), but it's the trackdays that ultimately have been responsible for faster laptimes...

[Doc]

Don't take this the wrong way, Big C.... but I think doing a couple track days would be an OUTSTANDING idea for ya, bro.

Not necessarily because you're a danger, but because it's a great place to get more track experience in a non-competative environment. It'll help teach to you how to make clean passes where there's no pressure to make the atempt stick. It'll also help teach you how to PLAN clean passes before you make them because of the rules that restrict passing in the "sketchy" areas.

I'll be at Tony's on July 23rd & 24th as well as Sept 18th & 19th working as a control rider. I'll also be signing up for the July 12th date to ride as a customer. Shoot Tony an email asking if it's cool for you to sign up for one of those dates, I'd love to ride w/ ya w/o the pressure of turning hot laps.

[Doc]

I like trackdays, now that I'm racing I use them to work on specific areas of the track that I want to get more speed through. The trick is not to try to turn a hot lap, if you get behind a slower rider just follow them until it's safe to pass or pit in and let them go by. There is so much track time during a track day compared to racing/practices or even the penguin school, you don't need to crank by every rider you see to get a lot out of it.

It's helped me greatly as I'm not the kind of rider who can just zone in on someone who's riding several seconds faster than me and start keeping up with them. I need to find the speed in the track myself before I end up in a race scenario. And it seems like I've seen an awful lot of people crash trying to knock multiple seconds off their laptimes by chasing a faster rider. Racing is teaching me to pass for position (something I'm still not good at), but it's the trackdays that ultimately have been responsible for faster laptimes...

Good words here.

[SVRACER01]

if youre crashing all the time... howd you make it to AM?

[TheIglu]

I actually was talking about doing a trackday myself today with a friend. I think it would be good for me since my lines aren't as smooth as they were last season. Practices are too short and too crowded to really work on specific sections of track.

Conor, I think it would be good for you. Let me know what trackday you decide on and I'll see if I can get to it also. Between you, me and Oreo, I'm sure we can all learn from each other where there is no competition and LOTS of laps available to us. It would also benefit me to be able to go through a certain corner over and over again knowing nobody will be trying a pass and I can experiment without fear of cutting someone's tire off.

[TheIglu]

if youre crashing all the time... howd you make it to AM?

When he finishes a race, he typically does pretty well, that's how. Just gotta get the consistency down and he'll be A OK.

[a13x]

What Oreo said.

You've been hitting the deck way too much, regardless if it is 'your fault' or not. Settle down Beavis.

[Paul_E_D]

Unless you were haplessly taken out, hit by another rider from behind, then you are at fault for falling down. Regardless of what goes on around you, you need to be in control of your motorcycle.

Trackdays are a good idea. It's a lot safer than racing...

[derrickhackman]

If you want some good race-style passes do a Penguin track day (Tony really doesn't dig tight passing ... for good reason). I will ride the fast group and quite a few of these guys race (and are Experts). If you are good and hold a good line they will pass you nice and tight (ask me how I know this) and you can pass other guys nice and tight if they are holding good lines. The difference in racing is that often times you don't think or set-up a pass properly and in the middle of the whole event something changes and you or the other dude is on the wrong line and everyone ends up in the puckerbushes.

Personally, I think trackdays are valuable experience and do help with racing experience. You don't get the crazyness that racing brings but you do get the ability to think before making that crazy pass for almost a worthless trophy.

[Ken C]

Paul, Tony, Graham and I are big advocates for solid foundations. Having a solid relationship with the racetrck (lines, brake markers, turn-in points, etc.) is the best way to be a safe, fast racer and track days are an ideal place to do that.

Racecraft (passing, altering lines for defense, being passed...) comes with experience and by understanding what you can get away with, which happens with the uunderstanding of your bike and the track, otherwise you're on the edge of control.

It's fine to ride with the other EX racers at track day, as long as you respect the rules. I do suggest you ask one of the instructors to keep a particular eye on you for some expert advice. Small changes can make a big difference and the instructors have the experience to spot these things and explain how to improve.

[legalspeed]

Age 16?

It never hurts to listen to your father, at least just once. Then do what you think is best for your riding career.

[lrrs_704]

I understand how much of a help a track day would be. My only objection would be to sacrifice a race weekend in order to do one. There were many different reasons for crashing last season, but towards the end I ironed things out and thought I had things down. The past two weekends I have crashed twice in the PTwins race and once in practice. The first weekend in practice I was out in DOT's and going around turn 2 was slick, and I laid it down there. The day after in the last lap of the race I had passed Mike and my father coming out of two when Mike was trying to pass my father and a motard on the inside. I was coming into 3 and the three of them came up on the inside, and all pushed me way outside. I ended up going over the curb and crashing there.

This weekend I was doing alright until, again, the last lap of the PTwins race. I got stufffed by an expert making his way through us, and ended up being a little behind. Mike, me, and Jason (i think) were racing together and on that lap Mike went on his passing spree. He passed me and Jason coming through 6 and 7, and I passed Jason around the outside of 8. I was then right behind Mike when we came to the big clump of people in 11. Mike tried to pass a motard coming into 12, but couldn't pull it off. He slowed down, as did I. For some reason in the chicane Mike slowed down again , and to avoid him I was going to go over those rumble strips coming onto the strait. Maybe Mike didn't see me next to him but he turned in anyway and smacked my front tire and I fell. I know there are certain things I could have done different, but I think we are exaggerating the fact when we say I am crashing too much and I need to do something about it. This implies I am crashing due to my own fault, and I don't think they were.

[Awesome]

Unless you were haplessly taken out, hit by another rider from behind, then you are at fault for falling down. Regardless of what goes on around you, you need to be in control of your motorcycle.

Trackdays are a good idea. It's a lot safer than racing...

+1

You fall down it's your fault. If you're dodging responsibility you're not correcting your mistakes or making any improvements. This goes for all riding, not just racing.

[OreoGaborio]

dont forget your off-road excursion through 1a

I think what you need to work on is reading other bikes & predicting what's going to happen ahead of time... that just comes w/ experience... but for some reason you're not picking up on it on the race track.

I dunno what else to tell ya that hasn't already been said, bro.... but I still think you'll like doing a track day..... more track time + less pressure = more learning to be done.

[zx1012r]

Hey Connor!

Your dad is worried about you and this past weekend also makes us all think of the dangers involved in this sport. He is trying to give you a little more seat time on a street motorcycle on the track in a less aggressive atmospere.

I grew up on bikes and bought my first street bike when I was 18(much to the dismay of my parents who hated motorcycles). I pitted for many racers and always said "I gotta try that someday". Finally when I was 36 I did. I had literally 100,000 miles of sportbike riding on the street where every driver is out to get you. It taught me limits and familiarty with the environment.

You will hate that I say this, but, you are YOUNG! You have MANY races ahead in your lifetime! Take the time to slow down a little and become familiar and patient with your track riding. Learn to anticipate a bad situation. BE FOREVER THANKFULL FOR YOUR DAD! He is not saying "No more motorcycles" He is carefully trying to minimize the risk to you while still providing a level of independence my parents never would have. I wish my dad was like that!

It will hurt to be there not riding, but take a race weekend with no pressure and watch the older guys (doesn't matter what kind of bike). They are taking risks but backing off if situations aren't ideal. That is the key to longevity.

And sometimes you go down and it's NOT your fault! My 2nd lap of my first practice of the year is proof of that!

Mark "talking like a dad now" Dages 454

[OreoGaborio]

ooh, good post, Mark... very good points on all counts & especially about parents.

[zx1012r]

When I was Connor's age I had a lot of differences with my dad. I never understood some of them until I became a parent myself. Those protective instincts are natural and strong. But a lot of parents are WAY more strict and would never condone this type of stuff! Would you adopt me, Tom?

[OreoGaborio]

BTW, Conor, I don't mean to take this thread off topic, but at the same time I wanted to bring up another point. I know you probably know this, but we don't have mirrors or eyes in the back of our heads... you can't see behind you. As such, each & every one of us is accountable in some way for everyone's safety that's in front of us. As the passer, we're the one responsible for making a safe pass.

So, it's not that Mike turned into you & hit your front tire, cuz you were behind him,. Mike wasn't responsible for seeing you or adjusting to your line.

I'm not saying who was at fault, just saying use some care in how you describe the incident. Mike reads this forum too & you don't want him thinking you're accusing him of causing the accident, cuz I'm certain he sees it very differently.

It's like the situation with myself and Clayton. He accepted the fact right away that he was the one that skrewed up... but frankly, I think he took it a little too hard. Bad decision yes, but I don't think he's 100% at fault.

[Doc]

He won't understand until he is a Dad.

Take this FWIW considering I am a novice and you can smoke me and my riding ability.

Sorry Bud, but even I at 36 had to be reminded to ALWAYS have an exit strategy, that way if people "squeeze you out" you have a place to go.

Do the track day, learn all you can, tell your Dad thank you for being a great Dad, then get out there and show them what you learned.

Don't think of it as a "track day" think of it as a riding clinic.

[TheIglu]

You are lucky. I wish MY dad was faster than me when I was your age. And it's easy to buy him presents at holidays, just get him anything you would want for racing. Especially things you can share

Smooth passing is more about self control than riding ability IMHO. I let it get the best of me and took Pete out a couple weeks ago. I thought I had the pass 100%, turns out I was only 80% there. Up until then I thought of myself as a clean, courteous racer that tried not to take too many chances when it came to passing. Sure, it has costed me a couple positions I knew I could of taken last season, but I'm in one piece today and would rather get a 2nd or 3rd than crash going for the lead. That incident was not the norm for me and it was a split second decision. I had no intention of passing in 10inside-11outside. I'm not comfortable doing so.

When I was behind you guys for that race, TJ went ahead and the rest of the wave was a clusterfuck. I thought it would end after the first lap and you guys would settle down and start passing and pulling away. Didn't happen like that at all.

I think the best skill to have as a racer is judgement and the ability to hold back when things aren't looking good. You'll get it soon enough.

[lrrs_704]

BTW, Conor, I don't mean to take this thread off topic, but at the same time I wanted to bring up another point. I know you probably know this, but we don't have mirrors or eyes in the back of our heads... you can't see behind you. As such, each & every one of us is accountable in some way for everyone's safety that's in front of us. As the passer, we're the one responsible for making a safe pass.

So, it's not that Mike turned into you & hit your front tire, cuz you were behind him,. Mike wasn't responsible for seeing you or adjusting to your line.

I'm not saying who was at fault, just saying use some care in how you describe the incident. Mike reads this forum too & you don't want him thinking you're accusing him of causing the accident, cuz I'm certain he sees it very differently.

It's like the situation with myself and Clayton. He accepted the fact right away that he was the one that skrewed up... but frankly, I think he took it a little too hard. Bad decision yes, but I don't think he's 100% at fault.

Pete...........I was never saying that Mike was suppose to adjust my line in any way. I said for some reason he was going pretty slow threw 12 +12a and I was trying to avoid him. I am guessing he never saw me, but I was on the brakes and beside him going into 12a.

I do blame myself for not anticipating how slow bikes were going to be going threw there with all the traffic. Maybe Mike thought I was trying to pass him (if he did see me), seeing as it was the last lap, and was maneuvering himself thinking I would be able to back off. I wasn't trying to make a pass, I was trying to avoid a crash. I apologize if I seem to be accusing anyone of forcing me to crash............I know that the person crashing into someone from behind is at fault, and I do accept responsibility for this.

Like you and Clayton, it is easy to misjudge how fast/slow someone is going in a split second, and that was the cause of my crash.