Need Help with Front Brakes. Air in the Lines??

[kamikaze]

Hi,

I was trying to check my front brake pads today. They were worn out and I have ordered new pads. I tried to open the calipers and must've done something wrong as I drained the brake fluid a little bit. I did not touch the bleeder nut. Now the front brake is completely free. I think it must be air. Is it very difficult to remove air from the lines now? What is the best way to do it? I am in Portsmouth and if anyone can help me get the brakes working, I would be very thankful and will buy you beer. I have not done it myself but I know how to bleed the brakes. Is that all I need to do?

I think I would be needing the Vacuum Pump. Can anyone lend it to me for a day or two? I am in Portsmouth. I do not want to buy one as probably this is the only time I might need it.

[Thunderbisciut]

Well, if you didn't open the bleeder, then you must have loosened the banjo bolt for the brake line. I would get a new pair of crush washers and replace those and then bleed the brakes.

If you suspect there may be a lot of air in the lines, then I would suggest opening the bleeder first till fluid starts to come out on it's own without pressing the brake lever. If you try to bleed the brakes when there is a large amount of air you will airate the fluid and have a whole mess of bubbles which can be a severe pain in the ass to bleed out.

Once the fluid comes out on it's own, close the bleeder and proceed to bleed them normally. Oh and don't touch the banjo bolts again unless you're changing the lines.

[BCT748]

You can buy the pumps for around $30 for the basic hand operated ones. You must have loosened up something though if you got air in the lines just from checking your pads. Make sure everything is tight and you didn't accidentally cut one of the lines.

[kamikaze]

Well, if you didn't open the bleeder, then you must have loosened the banjo bolt for the brake line. I would get a new pair of crush washers and replace those and then bleed the brakes.

If you suspect there may be a lot of air in the lines, then I would suggest opening the bleeder first till fluid starts to come out on it's own without pressing the brake lever. If you try to bleed the brakes when there is a large amount of air you will airate the fluid and have a whole mess of bubbles which can be a severe pain in the ass to bleed out.

Once the fluid comes out on it's own, close the bleeder and proceed to bleed them normally. Oh and don't touch the banjo bolts again unless you're changing the lines.

I think I did that only. It started coming out as soon as I opened one of the bolts on the front brakes.

I will try to do my best not to let anymore air in.

I feel terrible for doing such a stupid thing!

[akira700]

Spend the $30. Believe me you will do it more than once.
MityVac at Advance or AutoZone. Beats having a shop charge you
$75. Plus you will know its done right.

Once you have air in the line there is no way out of this situation
without bleeding the lines. You may need some more fluid.
It may just be a time to do a full fluid change.
Takes time and you need to be patient but its not rocket science.

Just FYI you should be able to change your pads without
opening any part of the hydraulic system.

[kamikaze]

Spend the $30. Believe me you will do it more than once.
MityVac at Advance or AutoZone. Beats having a shop charge you
$75. Plus you will know its done right.

Once you have air in the line there is no way out of this situation
without bleeding the lines. You may need some more fluid.
It may just be a time to do a full fluid change.
Takes time and you need to be patient but its not rocket science.

Just FYI you should be able to change your pads without
opening any part of the hydraulic system.

I will get the MityVac. Guess would be good $30 spent plus looks like a great riding weekend coming up!

I did change the fluid just before the track day and the fluid is good for now. I do have extra fluid though which I know I would be needing.

It might sound like a stupid question but how much time are we talking here? Hour/ Two hours? Entire Weekend?

[bigred875]

two hours if you arent mechanically inclined....it's a pretty easy job. make sure you have towells brake fluid eats paint and powder coating

[akira700]

I have found that if there is alot of air on there
it can take 3 or 4 bleedings to really get it rock solid.
Each time is about 10 minutes.

I wait in between bleedings for all the air bubbles to rise to
the master cylinder.
You can help this along by zip tying the brake lever to
the grip while everything is closed off.
Then gently tapping the calipers and lines to free up
stubborn and stuck air. Let it sit overnight and then in the
morning it should be most of the way there, just bleed again...

repeat till its solid.

[kamikaze]

Just called Advance Auto. They rent it out for basically free. Pay upfront $46 for the kit and you get all the money back on return. Will go and get that for now.

I have been in a pissy mood for a week since I lost my cellhphone and then did this to my brakes and came to know my company (doing an internship now) will not offer me a full time job!

However with help from you guys, things become a little easy.

[kamikaze]

You can help this along by zip tying the brake lever to
the grip while everything is closed off.
Then gently tapping the calipers and lines to free up
stubborn and stuck air. Let it sit overnight and then in the
morning it should be most of the way there, just bleed again...

repeat till its solid.

I have tied the brake lever over night. Infact more. Its still tied since last night.

I do place a towel or a rug around the master cylinder while topping the fluid. I know about its corrosive nature. Thanks.

Two hours isn't too bad.

It was only later I saw some instructions online how to change brake pads. I basically was working on tuning my suspension and for some reason decided to play with the brakes and ended up with this.

[kamikaze]

Just did some flushing. The brake is not completely firm but atleast it is not completely free either. I got the Vacuum system from Advance Auto Parts and I drained one full bottle of fluid which comes with the system. I still have some fluid left and would probably need more.

Thanks for the advice guys. I am doing the over night thing. Will bleed it further tomorrow.

[BCT748]

Oh Jesus, what type of fluid did they give you?

[kamikaze]

Oh Jesus, what type of fluid did they give you?

Its a DOT3. I had about 1.5 bottle of fluid left (do not remember the quantity) after Bergs! had changed the front brake oil and clutch oil two weeks ago..

[Jim]

what does your M/C cap say? DOT3 or DOT4? might want to flush it out again and use DOT4

[keeena]

DOT 3 and 4 are compatible. DOT 4 has higher boiling point tho and is preferred.

Kamakazi - I find that the vacuum pump only helps get 90% of the way there by priming system (esp. good for installing rebuilt components or new lines). I find I still have to use the traditional "open bleeder-squeeze brakes-close bleeder-release brakes) to get it 100%. Gentle tap to the caliper, bleeding @ M/C and zip-tie (w/ M/C res cover loose) all good ways to get every last bit of air out.

[butcher bergs]

Its a DOT3. I had about 1.5 bottle of fluid left (do not remember the quantity) after I had changed the front brake oil and clutch oil two weeks ago..

No love, eh?

I seem to recall two things from about 2 wks ago:

1) Recommending DOT4
2) Being in Portsmouth wrenching on a ZX-7

Maybe it was a dream...

[kamikaze]

No love, eh?

I seem to recall two things from about 2 wks ago:

1) Recommending DOT4
2) Being in Portsmouth wrenching on a ZX-7

Maybe it was a dream...

It wasn't! Edit made......

You know how I feel about you

[ZipPhReaK]

I just bleed my entire brake system with this $7 speed-bleed setup from advanced auto. It consists of a small plastic bottle to receive the fluid (with a magnet), a few plastic lines, and a couple of different bleeder adapters.

The instructions were pretty simple, fill brake resv with fluid. Attach setup to bleeder, and open bleeder, pump brakes until no air bubbles come out, including the tiny tiny ones. You can see the bubbles through the tubing very clearly. I did give the calipers a couple of gentle wackings, and also used the "quick wack" brake lever technique (instead of pulling the lever in all the way, I just repetively hit the brake lever gently, quickly, over and over till my hand was numb).

The only catch is that you need to keep the bottle up high so the air does not try to feed back into the lines, it has a magnet attached, that I attached to my front-stand when doing this.

When I was done with one line, I closed the bleeder rinsed and repeated on the other line, and MC.

Definetly not a mityvac but for $7, I have some rock hard brakes now.

[kamikaze]

I just bleed my entire brake system with this $7 speed-bleed setup from advanced auto. It consists of a small plastic bottle to receive the fluid (with a magnet), a few plastic lines, and a couple of different bleeder adapters.

The instructions were pretty simple, fill brake resv with fluid. Attach setup to bleeder, and open bleeder, pump brakes until no air bubbles come out, including the tiny tiny ones. You can see the bubbles through the tubing very clearly. I did give the calipers a couple of gentle wackings, and also used the "quick wack" brake lever technique (instead of pulling the lever in all the way, I just repetively hit the brake lever gently, quickly, over and over till my hand was numb).

The only catch is that you need to keep the bottle up high so the air does not try to feed back into the lines, it has a magnet attached, that I attached to my front-stand when doing this.

When I was done with one line, I closed the bleeder rinsed and repeated on the other line, and MC.

Definetly not a mityvac but for $7, I have some rock hard brakes now.

For best results, good ol' squeeze brake- open bleeder, close bleeder release lever is the best for final part of bleeding. THe MityVac is best when you are installing new lines.

Thanks everyone for the replies. Brian helped me out with bleeding and now I know how to do it myself too!

I bled my rear brakes yesterday and for the first time since I bought the bike, I can lock the rear brakes into a slide. Not that I am going to do it while riding but I use it to check the brake performance.

If someone does not want to invest in a MityVac, you could rent the vaccum pump system from Advance Auto for free. They take a deposit of $50 but return it on return of the system.

I am all set with this now!